Tuesday, 16 February 2010

Welfare Strikes Again

[Guest Post by Callum McPetrie]

The welfare state and "multicultural" government policy of many European governments has yet again led to riots. As reported in Stuff:
   "Dozens of immigrants from North Africa rioted during the night in a multi-ethnic neighbourhood in Milan, smashing shop windows, overturning cars to protest at the knifing death of an Egyptian, Italian police said."
This certainly isn't anything new; in fact, it's the second in Milan this year! And of course, we all remember the famous Paris riots of 2005, when large numbers of poor immigrants from Paris's suburbs went on a rampage. In all parts of Europe, many immigrants (including second and third generation immigrants) are not assimilating into European society, and many are living in the poor suburbs of cities like London and Paris. Likewise, the immigrants are not just from one part of the world - the Egyptian in the story was killed by a South American. Why is this so?

A quick glimpse will show that many of these disenfranchised immigrants live in state housing. Unemployment is extremely high - a New York Times article written before the recession reveals that the unemployment rate in a Parisian suburb with a high number of immigrants, Les Bosquets, was about 40%. Likewise, these suburbs have high numbers of young people, with birth rates several times the national average across Europe.

So, these disenfranchised immigrants are, by and large, products of the European welfare states. Likewise, heavy labour restrictions - particularly so in France - are preventing immigrants from working their way up the social ladder. Without any way to get up, many young immigrants turn to crime and gangs to make up for lost self-esteem. This can also lead to the spread of dangerous ideas such as jihad, among Muslim youth. The welfare state and French-style social democracy provide a disincentive and make it harder to climb the social ladder and assimilate into the local culture, be it French, British, Italian or Greek.

Compare this to immigration to the United States. There, most immigrants (including those terribly dreaded by conservatives, the illegal immigrants) see the ability to work and live in the US as a chance to make their lives better, not live at the expense of the welfare state. Whereas in Europe, immigrants are placing a great strain on the welfare systems, and immigrating to take advantage of the welfare state does not provide long term immigrants an incentive to assimilate.

The second important reason for the non-assimilation of immigrants in Europe is the governmental policy of multiculturism, and plain old political correctness. By emphasising the differences between cultures - and then proclaiming them to be equal, whilst giving the most handouts to the groups the most "disadvantaged"- multiculturism provides no reason for immigrants to assimilate; indeed, it actually foments hostility to the dominant culture. This is why you're increasingly seeing Muslim immigrants in Britain, for example, professing their hate for anything British. It also brings hostilities between immigrants of different nations to their new nation - witness the Cronulla riots in Sydney.

Likewise, multiculturism can often foment a sense of nationalism amongst the dominant cultures, and hate for the supposedly "disadvantaged" groups at the receiving end of the welfare state - this is seen with the rise of nationalism throughout European, and worryingly, the rise of neo-Nazism amongst young people in Eastern Europe. When a man knows his money is being taken to feed his neighbour who is not in fact starving (as per the original purpose of welfare), he will not have a high opinion of his neighbour.

Europe's problems with immigrants are well known. If it wants to deal with its immigrants without resorting to outright racist and anti-immigrant measures, it will have to do three things:

1) Dramatically downsize the welfare state, 
2) Remove regulations that strangle the ability for low-skilled immigrants to get a job, and
3) Remove the policy of multiculturalism from the public sphere.

Only then, will its immigrants stop being a burden on society, and start bringing the great benefits that immigration naturally brings when removed from the welfare state and multiculturism.


  1. I accidentally drove in to one of the ghettos in Paris.

    Scary stuff. Far scarier than Canon's Creek or Otara.

    I also saw the immigrant trap in Portugal. I lived in an immigrant area and saw first hand how they get stuck in a trap.

    I also saw there's an enormous amount of racism in Europe.

    Every single European I discussed the matter with believed the problems were because the immigrants were black... and black people behaved like that because they were black.... or something.

    Any opinion contrary to this (i.e mine) was met with a blank stare.

  2. Very few Europeans believe the problem is because the immigrants are "black" - although depending on when in Europe you are, black immigrants may be committing the most crime.

    Most of the problems, however, stem from the fact that they are Muslim - and many do NOT, as this article suggests, come to Europe to work but because they believe Christians exist to support Islam, and regard welfare as a sort of "dhimmi-tax". Abu Hamza is the best example of this worldview; he hated Britain, but loved the millions of pounds he pocketed in welfare over 15 years.

    Again, this article is misleading in using the term "disenfranchised"; nothing has been taken from them, as that word implies.

    Multiculturalism, as the author correctly maintains, is responsible, because it provides incentives NOT to assimilate, keeping immigrants in their self-made ghettos.

  3. "Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..." The US took in excess of over 30 million immigrants between 1836 and 1914 without any state welfare, affirmative action or political correctness and enjoyed the greatest period of growth of economic and demographic growth of any country in history. Enough said.

  4. There is a possibility that the huge mass of unclaimed land and resources may have played a part in that too. Don't forget that correlation doesn't prove causation.

  5. Viking

    "Again, this article is misleading in using the term "disenfranchised"; nothing has been taken from them, as that word implies."

    "Disenfranchised", here, means simply that they feel deeply separated from the rest of the nation, not that they've had anything taken from them.

  6. Hi Callum,

    This was a thoughtful and well-written post. I am wondering exactly what you mean with your third point - 'Remove the policy of multiculturalism from the public sphere' and what this means in reality. I assume you are suggesting that state support for cultures other than the 'dominant culture' should be removed, but there also seems a suggestion that the 'dominant culture' should not support minority cultures. It would be interesting to hear you expand on exactly what you meant with this point.

    I think the mentioning of the Cronulla Riots is poorly worded at best - you say that this is an example of 'hostilities between immigrant nations' being brought to the 'host nation' - whereas I would argue that the riots were a result of tensions between young idiots of both Australian and Lebanese origin. A friend of mine (Swedish) who was studying at the time still has a text saved inviting her to come along for 'wog bashing day' or something along those lines. Scary stuff.


  7. DenMT, how is the climate up there in Europe? Is global warming is still being felt there now, or is it global cooling? Perhaps, it's too cold to do anything?

  8. Redbaiter. What a sad, bitter little man.

  9. Callum
    I'm not going to argue word-meanings with you, but the idea that French society is responsible for the ghettoisation of "French" Muslims is ludicrous and, I'm sure, not the point you were trying to make in any case.

    My point is, that while blaming the welfare state is entirely correct, the feeling of separation as you call it is entirely the responsibility of Islam and is a conscious choice made by those who live in those suburbs.
    The current generation of French Muslims (if they are even born in France at all) are LESS assimilated than their parents were.

    From a Libertarian point of view, what welfare does is insulate people from poor decisions (and poor ideas) by subsidising unsustainable lifestyles and a medieval (read:Islamic) worldview.

  10. good article. the problem is indeed the welfare state and multiculturalism.

    However I do object to the use of the word assimilation which means “to make similar”; in that sense, it means the same thing as “conformity”.An ideology of assimilation is a good description of collectivism, and that is what is happening.

  11. Den MT:

    "This was a thoughtful and well-written post."

    Thanks (to you, and everyone else with kind words about this post).

    Basically, what I mean with the "remove the policy of multiculturalism" policy is that governments should not be making rules that apply to people of specific races, and that there should be no distinction between people of different races under the law. Likewise, no minority should get special privileges for being oppressed (aka multiculturalism).

    One law for all men, essentially.

    "I think the mentioning of the Cronulla Riots is poorly worded at best"

    Coming to review, I see what you mean. I would choose another example if I were writing it now. Nevertheless, national or racial rivalry can often be carried across borders.

    "but the idea that French society is responsible for the ghettoisation of "French" Muslims is ludicrous and, I'm sure, not the point you were trying to make in any case."

    It certainly is ludicrous, and definitely not the point I was trying to make. (I hope it didn't come across that way!)

    "From a Libertarian point of view, what welfare does is insulate people from poor decisions (and poor ideas) by subsidising unsustainable lifestyles and a medieval (read:Islamic) worldview."

    You're absolutely right, Viking. I couldn't have said it better myself. I'm certainly not trying to argue that the Islamic worldview you refer to is blameless, far from it - merely that the welfare state is what leads many people to it.

    "However I do object to the use of the word assimilation which means “to make similar”; in that sense, it means the same thing as “conformity”."

    It is indeed an icky term. It was used for lack of a better word (although, perhaps, "integration" may have been better, come to think of it).

  12. Oops. "Oppressed", in my reply to Den MT should have inverted commas around it.

  13. Damien: It's cold and snowy in Gothenburg, the coldest winter I have lived through here, however I don't intend to derail this thread into a pointless argument about global warming.


  14. Callum: Thanks for the reply. Do you think legislation in and of itself is a major barrier to the assimilation of minority cultures into the 'dominant culture' or that other factors are more powerful? Or, put differently, that legislation/state intervention aids in the 'ghettoisation' of immigrants?

    Here in Gothenburg there are large 'concentrated' immigrant communities in some of the outlying suburbs, presumably because state provision of housing and support organisations are located in areas where real-estate prices are lower. The majority of the immigrant population in these areas are not vastly wealthy, nor were they when they immigrated here. Denied any public aid or housing, I imagine that the number of immigrants would certainly be fewer, but those that could afford to move to Sweden would no doubt be living in the same lower-cost areas - albeit without access to Swedish-language learning courses, training initiatives, and many of the other bridges between cultures that actually work bloody well here.

    I am interested in your thoughts as to how a libertarian approach to immigration would ease the tensions between cultures. My feeling is that the real effect of removal of state support for immigrants and refugees would simply set the bar so high for immigration from poorer countries that the 'dominant culture' would in effect be isolated from the minority cultures that are seen bizarrely by some as injurious.


    PS: I don't want to get hung up on the Cronulla thing because I don't think it is central to your post, but it is problematic to suggest that the riots were occasioned by imported racial tensions. Hot-blooded idiots from both sides, for sure, but I can't swallow the idea that the incident awoke some sort of dormant hatred for Australians amongst the Lebanese community. The beach incident was the catalyst for a show of ugly, violent nationalism by a bunch of idiots, which then caused an equally ugly violent retaliation by another bunch of idiots.

  15. The Cronulla Riots, some background.

    For some time the sons of immigrants from the Lebanese Bakaa Valley visited Sydney beaches and made a nuisance of themselves. Over time they settled on Cronulla as their preferred beach. What you'd see each weekend was a migration of young Lebanese "men" from the Western suburbs. They'd hang around the beach to molest women. They consider Australian women, especially young white women, to be fair game for harassement, physical molestation, assault and rape. They call Australian women "Skippies".

    Typical behaviour would be to stand directly over a women who was lying on the beach sun-tanning and pass lewd comment on her breasts etc. They'd demand sexual favours ("come on, you can suck Leb, get it stuck in your throat like you like to", "we'll give it to you Leb style", "you can't go home unless you try the Leb cream pie", "we'll give it to you like those dogs got in the toilet" etc. etc. etc.). When a woman turned them down or got offended or told them to go away and leave her alone, then they'd get physical, pull hair, kick sand at her, spit on her, feel her up, try to remove her bikini bottoms to expose her, push her or shove her around, hit her and so forth. More verbal invective would follow until the woman escaped (frequently pursued off the beach for a way by a group of leering degenerate muslim youth).

    A favourite approach was to wait until a woman, or a group, had gone for a swim. Young Lebanese degenerates would take the opportunity to sit on the woman's beach towel and await her return. And then it'd be on. All the usual perverted sexual comments, demands and insults and humiliation. Of course, now women had the additional problem of retrieving towels, bags and personal property. Sometimes they were not able to.

    Police response was limited. Word of what wa going on got around and people started to avoid the beach. Public anger started to build. Still, the powers that be allowed the Lebanese problem to continue out of control. Multi-culturalism is a totem that is worshipped by some in Oz, just as in NZ.

    The Cronulla surf life-savers became active in trying to protect women from the degenerate lebanese youth that were making the beach into a such an unpleasant place to visit. Eventually a life-saver had his jaw broken when he tried to intervene in a situation where several Lebanese muslims had been harassing a young woman. That occurance was reported in the press and the troubles that had been brewing in Cronulla became public.

    A rock concert was held at the beach a short while later. There was a "take back the beach" theme to the afternoon. Many attended to express outrage at what the lebanese thugs had been up to. They wanted them gone and the beach returned to what it had been. Word got around that a gang of Lebanese "men" were heading to the beach to "fight the whites." It turned out that many of those guys were detained by Police and prevented from getting up to Cronulla. The trains were stopped and road blocks were put in place. Still, by mid-afternoon sun, rock, drink, speaches and anger boiled over and the crowd was ready to riot. It was all on. People were furious, looking to dish up a bit of utu to those Lebanese "men".

    This affair was down to welfare and culture. It's blown over once already. Don't think that one riot was the end of it.


  16. You might wanna have a look and compare that French situation to the one in South Africa where the people are not immigrants but indigenous people and there is no welfare system to speak of.

    People in major South African cities speak of daily violence, killings and gangs that loot and control neighbourhoods.

    I would probably prefer the French situation if I had to choose.

    It seems that it is poverty and/or an unjust system that marginalises them that is afflicting these people and leading to the violence and hopelessness. Welfare is not the only cause of poverty/hopelessness nor is it the only solution.

  17. The problem with a scenario that invisages 'marginalised' people vs. society at large is that the so-called powerless have a tendency to prove themselves quite the opposite - as in LGM's description of violence in Australia above.

    Sally, the problems in South Africa are partly related to welfare but obviously not entirely, and the term 'indigenous' is highly problemmatic in that context. A Zulu or a Xhosa, for example, is not indigenous to the Western Cape, where only the Xhoi and their descendents can claim that label.

    The problem in SA is not between indigenous and newcomer but between urban and rural, or rather between urban-settled and urban-migrant. Whatever the cause, I think the problem there is entirely different to that Callum refers to above, which in my view specifically relates to Islamic migration into Europe.

    Islamic migrants are happy to, and indeed have chosen to, live as foreigners in countries they often openly hate. Multiculturalism, a philosophy partly based on a person's right to maintain her own culture, is a state of affairs where the ONLY demand made of foreigners is that they obey the law of the land - a demand that, incidentally, they have overwhelmingly failed to comply with.

    Inviting immigrants to live in one's country seems a good way to help make their lives better, but not if their prejudices, cultural practices and misogyny go unchallenged; How, then, is a Pakistani woman who ends up dropped out of an eighth floor balcony in Stockholm any better off than had she stayed in Islamabad?

    How do Iranian refugees, having lived in Oslo since the 1980s, feel about being told that their old culture (that tortured and abused them) is as valid as their new one?

    Sorry about the long comments, but this is a long-winded way of agreeing with the OP !

  18. LGM: I'm not going to get into an argument about the Cronulla riots outside of saying that your idea that the mob violence dished out by hundreds of half-pissed idiots was a pre-emptive strike against carloads of Lebanese youths flies against ALL media accounts of that day - furthermore my mate who lived in Sydney as an exchange student for four years and surfed Cronulla (but wasn't there during the riot period) reckons your picture of typical Lebanese behaviour is bullshit. Is it from first-hand experience?

    Anyways, with some of the other comments I think a general picture is emerging that it is not so much government intervention which is objectionable to a lot of the commenters, but merely the idea of immigrants retaining their culture in a new country.

    Here's another question to continue the central debate then (one that is germane to my own experience as an immigrant to Sweden) - how much of your original culture should you be allowed to retain as an immigrant?


  19. how much of your original culture should you be allowed to retain as an immigrant?

    Except for those elements directly involving the coercion of individuals — in particular, children — each immigrant should be free to retain whatever elements of their own culture they chose. As an immigrant myself I'll go one step further and add that I'm also free to explore cultures outside the traditions of my family, and even to define and invent my own or reject all of them.

  20. DenMT

    Some advice and information.

    1/. Try to comprehend what you are reading.

    2/. Do not make up lies about other people's contributions.

    For example, you claimed my "idea" was that the violence of the Cronulla riots was a "pre-emptive strike against car-loads of Lebanese youth".

    I didn't write that. You made it up.

    What I wrote was that at the concert word got around that a gang of Lebanese "men" was heading to the beach to "fight the whites." They were and, for the most part, they were detained by the Police. Most of them did not get to Cronulla that afternoon, although some did make an appearance later that night (interestingly a large group of them descended on Brighton-le-Sands the next evening where they rioted, smashed up shops, stabbed people, terrorised the residents and generally caused untold trouble). What I reported was that by mid-afternoon sun, rock, drink, speaches and anger boiled over and the crowd was ready to riot. What I should have added was that it was elements within the crowd that actually did go on to riot late afternoon/early evening, not the entire crowd.

    Some background. That crowd was very angry. The general feeling was that the authorities had done little or nothing to sort out the leb problem (which was quite true, they hadn't). There was definitely an element seeking "utu" for what had been occurring on the beach. There was fresh resentment for those who had assaulted the surf-lifesaver.

    Now had you actually been present in Sydney at the time you'd have known how well the rock concert had been advertised. You'd also be aware the intent of the concert was to deliver the message that people were fed up with all the anti-social behaviour on the beach. People wanted an end to the antics of the lebs. They were frustrated by the apparant lack of action by the authorities. They wanted their beach back as the peaceful, enjoyable, pleasant place to visit it had always been in the past.

    Had you known anything about this matter you'd also be aware that during the week leading up to the concert the lebs made concerted, inflamatory statements to the public. There were threats and talk about how they would attack concert goers, disrupt the concert and cause trouble. That was well known. Some were interviewed on radio about their opinions and they were not backward in coming forwards about their attitude and intentions. They were and are hostile to Australian culture and ideals.

    On that afternoon, throughout the crowd, there was anger. There were also groups that had an expectation that something might occur. That was reasonable given the rhetoric of the prior week (well reported by the inflamatory media, by the way). There were those who were there to give back some of what had been given out, so to speak. There was the attitude that enough was enough and that it was time to take back the beach. It was, as I said, all on. All that was required to start it off was for the lebs to make their promised and awaited appearance. People started to look around...

    A Lebanese man got chased (not sure if he was one of the sons of the Bakaa Valley group or not) and made good an escape. Another guy (Lebanese, a Maronite Christian not Muslim) also got chased. He took refuge in a building. The angry pursuers were told that he was a local Cronulla man and not one of the guys they sought. Meanwhile word went through the crowd (the bulk of which was still concert-side) that lebs were congregating at a railway station up the line and were headed to Cronulla on a train. A large group of angry people headed to the railway station with the intent of meeting the lebs right on the platform to keep them out of Cronulla altogether. The Police closed the station at that stage. From there the "riot" developed.

    --continues below---

  21. --- continued from abouve---

    3/. You should treat official media reports with skepticism. They operate according to an agenda and their own trading of interests. Facts are not a fundamental value for them. Best to treat them as infotainers at best and propagandists unless proven otherwise.

    The media had a lot to say about the riot, what had caused it and who was to blame. They did not report much of substance or accuracy. They didn't acknowledge their part in fanning the flames to set it off. The official line was never deviated. The policy of multi-culturalism was never questioned or critiqued. The fact that the young Lebanese Muslim "men" are a terrible anti-social problem in Sydney was not seriously examined or addressed by mainstream media. The anger of the crowd was smeared into merely "another example" of white racism and intolerance. There was a lot more to what was going on that that. For example, I draw your attention to the pack rapes organised by the Skaf brothers. Affairs such as that were in the public domain at the time of the riot. People had had enough. They wanted an end to it.

    4/. So you had a mate who told you about a man who had a dog who said that his friend told him that his Greek cat know a Lebanese rat and the rat said that....


    Are you full of shit or what?

    I was there, a resident.

    Look, moron. Things had got so bad that my wife (a blonde white girl who looks good in a Manley two-piece) couldn't go swiming at Cronulla beach alone or even with her girlfriends. She even had to be careful in Paramatta anywhere near the railway station, lest she attracted trouble from the lebs (they used to cruise the streets and abduct young women for rape practice).

    5/. Your shithead of a mate must have been comatose under a rock if he was truely unaware of how bad a problem the behaviour of young Muslim Lebanese "men" had become in Sydney. There was a constant stream of rapes, assaults and violence associated with them. It was a significant issue which only got partially resolved after all the publicity (and the riot).

    6/. The cultural problem which excuses these guys their disgusting attitute and behviours has not been eliminated by any means. There is more trouble to come.


  22. "How much of your original culture should you be allowed to retain as an immigrant?"


    By whom is permission to be granted?

    Check your premise!

    Best deal with the situation thus... If an individual initiates force, fraud or coercion against another, then that individual forgoes any claim to Individual Rights - after all, he or she does not recognise and apply such a concept.

    Beyond that, whose business is it what your habits and customary behaviours are?


  23. LGM, you're a cock who can't string together an argument without flinging a bunch of shit at the person who you're arguing with, and I honestly can't be fucked with composing a reply that dignifies your response. My mate surfed that fucking beach as a local for two of the years she studied in Sydney (straddling the riot period). I'll take her word over yours any day, and it is clear what your agenda is. Dickhead.


  24. DenMT

    You are outrageously funny. I had to laugh at this:-

    "I honestly can't be fucked with composing a reply..."

    As if you know about being honest.


    And, yes, you have indeed composed a reply.

    And posted it.


    Who knew you were a comedian?

    DenMT, seriously, you don't have a valid argument. That's because your position is based upon a falsehood (check your premise). Further, the method of argument you employ is dishonest. This brings into doubt EVERYTHING you submit here. Hell! Does your imaginary surfer student "friend" exist or is she merely an artifact from a dishonest imagination?

    The facts are:

    1/. you were not there

    2/. your friend was not there

    3/. you do not know what happened

    4/. you have not bothered to find out the facts of the situation

    5/. you are operating from faulty premise

    6/. you have a bad habit of substituting your own fictions for other people's posts (this occasion was not the first)

    7/. you are wrong (clearly and obviously)

    Now, go back to your bigot hole and sulk like the weenie you are.


  25. For anyone (other than dirty Den) who is interested,

    I had to search back a ways to find this gem.

    "All Arabs unite as one, we will never back down; the Aussies will feel the full force of the Arabs. Destroy everything, gather at Cronulla Beach on 18th December at midday – spread the word. Together, exterminate the enemy at Cronulla. Send this to every lion of Lebanon."

    It's one of a stream of text messages transmitted during the week prior to the concert at Cronulla. A colleague at work received it and similar. He was a Muslim, though not Bakaa Lebanese. He was not impressed. None of us were.

    Anyway, the word was out in the week prior to the concert. There was the strong sentiment that people had finally had enough of leb thuggery. The concert was aimed at demonstrating, by way of mass attendance, that that the beach was not for harassment and assaults. The anti-social behaviour of the lebs needed to be stopped. If anything else, the concert was to be a plea to the authorities to step in and do their proper job- one they had shockingly failed at (and not just in Cronulla and Cronulla Beach).

    I was a Sydney resident and while I do not know what exact act it was that initiated or caused the rioting that day (I did ask around but never did get to the bottom of it), I do know that there was an expectation that the lebs intended to show for a fight. Word got around and people were watching for them. My thinking at the time was that when the lebs realised how many people would be present at the concert (and realised what the general sentiment was) they'd choose discretion and lie low for a few months. But no! Some tried to make it to Cronulla all the same. Some managed to get there in the late evening and some attacked Brigh-l-Sds the next night. They engaged in serious organised violence. Things rumbled on for weeks after that day in Cronulla. In the end the Police gained new powers and exercised them vigorously to quell organised group violence. Some commented that it was a pity they were not so active earlier in the piece.


  26. FYI, a bit more background.

    In Sydney prior to the riot of Cronulla, there had been a steadily growing public concern about the activities of the Muslim leb gangs. Most concerning was the delinquency of the authorities to do much about it. When some people called for the problem to be sorted they were smeared as intolerant white racists- hence "un-Australian" or the "worst of Australia". The liberals/progressives/left/whatever-name-they-are-lately happily rolled out a version of the memory of the old "White Australia" policy and would chide everyone about how shameful and bad that was.

    On the other hand, the leftie ideals of "multi-culturalism" were promoted, maintained and protected, even when that meant that some women got pack raped or some old people got bashed and robbed or some locals got harassed and/or bashed.

    Things really started to come to a head when a few occurances spilled into the public domain. Then the lid began to lift. People didn't like what they glimpsed stewing in that pot.

    The first matter to generate real attention was when the father of a teenage girl laid a complaint with the Police regarding some abusive and threatening behaviour directed at his daughter. She had some possessions stolen. She was lucky to have escaped without being assaulted of worse.

    When the complaint was filed with the NSW Police, the father was informed that his daughter had been lucky to have got off as lightly as she did and that in future she and her friends should not be allowed to travel about unattended. After several weeks the Police were revisited by the dad to see how they had progressed in turing up the thugs that had attacked his daughter. They had not progressed. He was told there were far too many leb youth roaming around in gangs for the Police to have any idea which it may have been. He was also told that it was a waste of Police resources to find out who the criminals were. This, despite being provided with the registration number of the car used by the thugs...

    The father had to explain that reponse to his daughter. He decided that it wasn't good enough. He decided he would find out who these thugs were himself and see to it they were brought to account for what they had done. He felt that he owed that to his daughter and her friends. Using the registration number of the car the thugs had used to drive away from their crime, he was able to track one of them down, follow that guy for a time, locate the remainder of the group, record their activities and locate the residences of the main protagonists. His daughter was brave enough to identify each of the criminals. Yes, they were indeed all leb bakaa thugs. All of them.

    Back to the Police went the father. He showed them what he had found. He explained his daughter had positively identified each member of the gang. The response was, "You don't want to tangle with them. They are too dangerous." No arrests. No further progress.

    So the father did two things. He laid a complaint with the State Government and he wrote a letter to the media. Shortly after that he was interviewed on the radio. Suddenly, things started to move. There was an "investigation". More importantly the general public started to stir. Then other people wrote letters about the activities of the lebs. More people started to call the radio and talk about experiences they'd endured or heard about. The official response was excuses and disengenuous words. There was no leb problem, only Okker intolerance. Yeah, right.

    The atom bombs that blew this state of affairs wide open were a series incidences of Muslim youth engaging in organised pack rape. Eventually two in particular achieved considerable public noteriety. One was undertaken by some Pakistani Muslims and the other was the Skaf case.


  27. The Skaf case came to trial solely due to the incredible bravery of two young women, both victims of the most appalling treatment imaginable. Both of the victims was abducted by a car load of lebs. They were stripped naked, restrained, sexually assaulted and violently abused in the car. Then they were driven to another location where they were once again restrained. It was then the rapes really begain in earnest. It is thought that the victims endured the attentions of at least 28 lebanese "men" over many hours. They were forced orally, vaginally and anally. They "got it done Leb style".

    Just stop for ten minutes (not ten hours, just ten minutes) and try to imagine what those girls endured for all that time. Just try to imagine the suffering they experienced.

    Just try...


  28. The leader of the rape pack was Bilal Skaf. He (his brother, cousins and others) used cell phones to co-ordinate with other lebanese "men", inviting them to come and join in. Most of these have not yet been identified by the Police. They are unlikely to ever be identified. Their community continues to hide and protect them. According to them "Aussie girls deserve it."

    One of the victims managed to escape after some 10 hours constant abuse. She ran for help. She ran for her life. She was the first person to come forward to endure the stress of making an official complaint and going through the entire process of giving a statement, undergoing evidential medical examination, being subject to several cross-examination, being spat on by the defendant's mother, hissed at and threatened by the defendant's "family" and "community", called a liar and a slut and a whore, enduring all of it to give her evidence and stare down at least a few of the vermin who had attacked her and attempted to destroy her. How difficult her life must have become one can scarcely think. I hope she is able to retreive some happiness in the World and somehow forget what was done to her.

    Now as if that wasn't bad enough, during the investigation and trial evidence came to light (diaries, stolen goods, admissions from related defendants, witnesses etc) that demonstrated this was not the first occasion that this particular group of lebs had been at the centre of organising abduction and pack rape. There had been many priors. Many of them. Eventually the Police admitted to finding some 6 other women who were prepared to confirm earlier attacks. There was an unknown number who were approached and who were not prepared to discuss the matter at all.

    Eventually the Skaf defendants were convicted and jailed. As previously mentioned, the majority of rapists were not identified. No assistance was forthcoming from their families or community.

    What was discovered was that the attitude and ideas of the defendants were not at all unusual within the "community" from which they hailed. Australian white women are all whores and sluts. They deserve to be punished by rape. Incredible as it seems, the mother of rapist Bilal Skaf walked up to the victim of her son, spat on her and blamed her for getting her son into trouble. She complained it was unfair and a racist plot that her son was on trial at all. She regarded the victim as the cause of all the problems in the first place (Why? Because she was still alive and breathing?). Then there was the girlfriend of one of the rapists. This woman of Muslim of Lebanese Bakaa descent reported that she did not believe any of the defendants committed any rapes or organised them. She considered the victims somehow at fault. Unspoken but clearly communicated was the contempt for the victims... In the whole affair what was heard again and again from those "families" and that "community" was denial, excuse and an unhealthy hatred of Australian women. Yup, there was (and is) a cultural issue, or several, to sort out.


  29. Now this affair wasn't the only one that occurred. There were several leb gangs active at the time. Another one of them abducted young Korean women and girls. They also attacked Vietnamese and Chinese women. Assaulting the Koreans was a bad move. It led to justice, just not the official sort. The thing to realise is that more and more of this was getting into the public domain. Some by radio, but much more by word of mouth and local discussion. I well remember being told about the Korean victims by a restaurant owner in Eastwood. I remember being warned about leb activity around Paramatta, Blacktown and even Auburn by work colleagues, business associates and suppliers, neighbours and so on. These were trusted people, not mere gossips. My wife was also warned about the car loads of thugs seeking to abduct right off the street. That warning was confimed by a Police Officer. So she had to restrict her shopping activities some. The point is that the lebs were into all sorts of mindless violence, even attacking old people, harassing them, knocking them down, bashing them and stealing their money. They started fights in night clubs and pubs (to the point where some establishments wouldn't allow any lebs to enter). They started trying to run protection rackets in some suburbs. And gradually people started to become aware of it all.

    And that provided some of the fuel for the Cronulla riot.


  30. I am with DenMT,

    LGM is basing hatred of one whole group of people for another based on the actions of groups of criminal youths in gangs. The mother of a virtually psychopathic pack-rapist is hardly the best representative of what most Lebanese people think of Australians.

    Did LGM survey the entire Lebanese population? Did he conduct any research beyond the conversations he had at fish and chips stores and heard on the local radio? No

    I think the name of the game for LGM is wild guesses and crazy theories of deep racism which fit his view of the world.

    Whereas the reality is that a few youths got out of control in their new country (as many do) and their anti-social behaviour was met by equally angry disaffected Australian young men who were made angry by news reports which singled out lebanese nationals as trouble makers.

    Anyone from either community with half a brain was well clear ofthe situation and preferred to supprot the authorities.

    Saying you knew exactly what was going on in the Lebanese community in Sydney is like saying you know what is going on in the Polynesian community in Auckland if you are a European living on the North Shore. (rolls eyes)

  31. Sally

    What you are indulging in, on this occasion, is an attempt to suppress reality by smearing and also by substitution of one topic for another and also by substitution of your narrow opinion for facts. None of that is a valid approach. YOu should not make a habit of it.

    The occurances of which I wrote are fact of reality. You can't honestly avoid addressing them by employing tactics such as airing arbitrary suppositions regarding my motives or actions. You do not know me well enough to even hazard a guess. Best policy, as always, is to work with the facts. Address them directly.

    Yet more background....

    There are several groups of Lebanese immigrants and their progeny living in Sydney. For example, Catholic and Maronite, Orthodox, Sunni Muslim. They have different beliefs, behaviours and claim differing cultures. Some of them do not get on with each other. Indeed, there has been friction. Many Marionites take great pains to ensure that others understand they are not Muslim and that they are Australians. Many people identifying themselves as members of the various groups were born in Australia.

    The criminality of which I wrote was predominantely exhibited by sons of the Bakaa Valley Lebanese who immigranted to Australia during the 1970s and 1980s. Most of these guys were born in Australia or were very young (infants) when their families immigrated to Australia. They were raised in Australia. This group follows the Muslim religious belief (usually identifying themselves as Sunni). They were exclusively raised that way by their parents. Exclusively.

    Among other things they were taught that Australian culture is not their culture and that their country is Lebanon. This has led to an alienation and an opposition to what they identify as things "Australian." The separatness they go on to generate for themselves (complete with opposition to what they identify as "Australian") commonly results in low achievement in society. In general they fail to achieve much academically, socially or even in sport. They consider themselves different and to not fit within the rest of the society in which they exist. Their parents tend not to encourage participation in it anyway. Hence they tend to restrict themselves to social activities within a closed community of Bakaa immigrants and immediate families.

    One of the themes that was repeated by many (the defendants of various crimes, their families and their comunity representatives/ official spokesmen for the community etc.) was that their culture was different. They said did not understand what they were doing to be wrong. It supposedly wasn't wrong according to what they posited as being their culture. Thus their behaviour was the fault of Australians and Australian society for not having a proper understanding of them. Implicit in such statements was the expectation that they were special, that everyone else should be required to make special provision for them. "You do not understand us" was the common refrain. "We are underpriviledged." "We are discriminated against."


  32. The attitude towards non-Muslim women was and remains particularly shocking. Such women were said to be deserving of "punishment." They were considered to be whores, sluts, cheap and available. When such supposedly "cheap and available" women refused the lewd advances of deluded thugs, then anger was immediately exhibited. After all, according to them, no Skippie slut has the right to say no to a Lion of Lebanon. The idea that Australian women were loose and available was taught by the parents. Their religious beliefs admonish women who are not considered "modest".

    At first, the significant and growing trouble with these young boys and men was ignored. A few school teachers commented, some with great concern, about what was developing within a generation of young Muslim males of Lebanese extraction. Some complained to parents and were laughed at or scorned (special hostility was reserved for female teachers). When the criminality and violence ramped up (after a significant number had departed secondary school) the official policies ruling were adhered to by authorities. Little was done to counter the very real problem. Not much comment appeared in the media either. What there was soon got smeared as racist or misguided etc. Problems were down played -plenty of sotto voice rationalisation, soothing double-speak,smearing and dissembling (rather as you have attempted, Sally). An early step change was when the thugs got organised. This allowed larger numbers of them to partake in co-ordinated activities (such as abductions and pack rapes) or to rapidly arrive as reinforcements in difficult or "interesting" situations. The result was a significant ramping up of their activities. Eventually the scale and depravity of what they were engaging in caught public attention. The resentment that spread accross Sydney for what these thugs were doing gradually put increasing pressure on authorities to act. It completelty undermined the political cult of "multi-culturalism."

    The series of assaults of increasing severity over a three week period at Cronulla led to direct calls on State Government and law enforcement authorities to act immediately. The concert was organised as a protest to ram that message home. It was a well intentioned idea to hold the concert. A riot was not the intention of the organisers. It wasn't the intention of the majority of the attendees either. Nevertheless, there was considerable anger and resentment at the activities of leb thugs. There was the understanding that there could be trouble. The concert organisers and locals made it clear that all were welcome to come to the concert and enjoy the beach. Those who intended to initiate criminality were asked to stay away as they were not welcome. They were one of the things people were protesting about. That was the background to the day's events.

    I do not know what the exact event that initiated the riot actually was. I didn't witness it, nor did anyone I know. There are a variety of stories and commentaries about what happened to start things off. The most reliable source I've since corresponded with says that there were several minor altercations late in the day, but that things really deteriorated after the concert finished. As I've already pointed out, there was a heady fuel of speeches, sun, beer and emotions were running high. Pehaps the concert should have been cancelled. If it had I now believe that violent disorder related to the leb problem would have emerged on some other occsaion, at some other time, unless, of course, the authorities acted to shut down the leb activity that provoked matters in the first place. I am familiar with the lead up in the weeks prior to the riot and also to the results the followed. I was a resident Sydneysider. I noticed what was going on around the city and have chosen to find out about it.


  33. After the riot the State and (eventually) the Federal Police were given important new powers. They wasted no time at all in employing those. Significant public approbrium was bought to bear upon the Bakka Muslim Lebanese. Pretty much every Muslim community was put on notice. The Police shifted significant resources into dealing with leb crime. Intelligence gathering operations were initiated in mosques and schools etc. Each Muslim community was approached and liaison was set up between the authorities and representatives of those groups. The deal was that they needed to inform their membership that the laws of the land must be respected and adhered to or else. They were also expected to inform the Police about the emergance of any criminality within their purvey. Once again, it was that or else.

    This was not just a few wild youth being dealt with. It was far more than that. This was a belated recognition that a certain barbaric culture had been permitted to exist and that the costs of that mistake had been very high. Unfortunately those costs were mostly borne by innocent individual Australian women. It had to stop. After the immediate clean up and a very public purging of leb thuggery, things settled down some. Social workers began to develop more extensive contacts throughout the comunities involved. A deliberate attempt was made to seek out role models for leb youth to emulate. A well known rugby league player, Masri, started to undertake work with at-risk young people in the suburbs. He was the most well known but there were others trying to assist as well. In reality, this has been the first step of an integration into Australian society. It amounts to the replacement of the "Lion of Lebanon" bullshit with assimilation into Australian culture. Perhaps the violence and criminality will subside and not be returned to. There is still some way to go and there are still issues that require attention. There are matters yet to be played out, no doubt.


  34. Now, Sally, let's turn to your post. What an intellectually cowardly piece of dishonestly it is.

    You wrote: "LGM is basing hatred of one whole group of people for another based on the actions of groups of criminal youths in gangs."

    I didn't do that. I wrote about what was going on immediately prior to the riots and how that formed the background for what happened. They didn't just occur out of a vacuum. There was a context and some pretty powerful motivating reasons for why people behaved as they did on that day. How about you avoid pretending to mind read and deal with substantive fact?

    You wrote: "The mother of a virtually psychopathic pack-rapist is hardly the best representative of what most Lebanese people think of Australians."

    No, Sally, she isn't. I didn't say that she was the "best representative of what most Lebanese people thing of Australians." Those are YOUR words. Be honest now. You made that up out of your own wee mind, you naughty little thing, you.

    You wrote: "Did LGM survey the entire Lebanese population? Did he conduct any research beyond the conversations he had at fish and chips stores and heard on the local radio? No"

    Oh dear. Sally, that's a cheap low smear. How banal you are. Is this all there is to you?

    Serious research is something that you appear to have failed to undertake yourself. Unlike you, I have direct access to the facts of the situation. I conducted significant research at the time and since. I was present in Sydney before and after the riot. I was and am a long time resident.

    Where were you exactly?


  35. Look, it's all very well sitting on your cellulite a couple of thousand miles away, years after the incidents, trying to make the World fit into your box of pre-assembled myths and silly theories, but you are never going to find the facts of the situation of develop any worthwhile knowledge indulging yourself like that. Stop being such a shallow nit-wit.

    You wrote: "I think the name of the game for LGM is wild guesses and crazy theories of deep racism which fit his view of the world."

    Had you considered that you are describing your own mode of operation, Sally? Perhaps you should examine your conscience. Again, I've related that which was actually occurring at the time.

    You wrote: "Whereas the reality is that a few youths got out of control in their new country (as many do) and their anti-social behaviour was met by equally angry disaffected Australian young men who were made angry by news reports which singled out lebanese nationals as trouble makers."

    Oh really? You made that up.

    You demonstrate for all to see your utter and complete ignorance of the topic.

    Fact: The vast majority of these leb troublemakers are Australian born. They are Australian citizens. Those that were not born in Australia have been raised in Australia since they were tiny infants. Australia is not their "new country", it is their ONLY country. Most have never been anywhere else. Some have not even been out of Sydney yet.

    Fact: There were a lot more than "a few youths". For example, the raid on Brighton-le-Sands involved some 50 car loads (according to NSW Police). Simultaneously there were revenge attacks and the like occurring right across Western Sydney during the same night.

    Fact: The "angry Australian men", as you put it, were responding to the barbaric behaviour of lebs at Cronulla and elsewhere. The bashing of the surf-lifesaver was the final incident in a long list of criminal barbarities. People felt it had to stop.

    You write: "Anyone from either community with half a brain was well clear ofthe situation and preferred to supprot the authorities."

    Really? You thought that up all by yourself?

    Interesting that one of the themes of the concert was an appeal to the authorities to act. Significant that several spokesmen for Lebanese Muslim communities (and, as I recall, two other Muslim communities) publicaly damned the authorities as "Australian and racist", "prejudicial" and "biased". That was hardly what one would consider support.

    You write: "Saying you knew exactly what was going on in the Lebanese community in Sydney is like saying you know what is going on in the Polynesian community in Auckland if you are a European living on the North Shore. (rolls eyes)"

    You absolutely should apply that analysis to yourself, Sally. Otherwise people might come to the conclusion that you are a hypocrit!

    Here, let's make it easy for you.

    Pretending you know what was going on in Sydney prior to and after the Cronulla riots when you clearly and obviously don't is dishonest and contemptible. You have not got significant real knowledge of the situation and are not familar with the facts. It is now quite clear that the actual events that occurred violate your cherished theories and imbecilic ideology. Tough for you.

    Change your approach. Try finding out the facts and learning from them.


  36. LGM thinks that the more dribble you write the better it looks.

    In actual fact it is the opposite LGM.

    You know nothing about the Cronulla riots despite being there. You know only the bits and pieces that could be viewed from where you are.

    The rest of us saw the situation for what it was - out of control youths from both sides who needed to get jobs and get on with their lives instead of hanging around in gangs.

    But you will again spout your racist dribble.


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