Monday, November 02, 2009

Hallensteins defend murderer [update 2]

A recent exchange of correspondence between Hallensteins and a former customer, aka The Tomahawk Kid.

Dear Xxxxxx,

I write with reference to your email to the Hallensteins website regarding T Shirts with a print of Che Guevara on the front.
I am very sorry to hear that these T Shirts are offensive to you. There is no intention to offend anyone.
These T Shirt images are really just a reflection on a person who is probably more widely viewed as a revolutionary and a symbol of rebellion.
There is no question of hero status, or even fashion for that matter, merely a rebellious nature, which seems to appeal to people of all ages.
Thank you for your support of Hallensteins in the past, I do hope we can continue to count you among our customers

Yours sincerely
Roy Dillon
CEO
Hallenstein Glasson Holdings Limited
**************

Hi Roy - thanks for your reply

Unfortunately these T-Shirts are still in extremely bad taste.
May I suggest you do some research and find out how many people that chap with a rebellious nature killed and murdered.
Hallensteins are responsible for championing and glamorising a mass murderer whether that is your intention or not - ignorance of the facts is no excuse or defence.
Some school kids were recently in the news for saluting and bowing to a Swastika because they were ignorant of the attrocities of the Nazis. This was extremely bad taste - but they were ignorant children.
Che Guevara murdered and tortured anybody who did not believe in his version of communism.
This is not freedom fighting - it is murder.
He was a revolutionary - not for freedom, but for oppression.
He didn’t want people to be free to chose how they wanted to live - he wanted freedom from capitalism - so people could be forced to live under communism.
It is ironic that the system of capitalism that allows you to glamorise this thug is the system that he hated, and would have had you murdered at the blink of an eye.
I think you should change your mind on this - or do you intend to produce a line of mass-murderer T-Shirts?
Son of Sam, Stalin, Goering, Mao, Hitler perhaps?
May I suggest you read more about the man you display so proudly on your products: http://www.therealcuba.com/MurderedbyChe.htm

Xxxxxx Xxxxx

Hi Xxxxxx

There is no glamour, championing, hero status or otherwise intended, he appears to symbolise rebellion, nothing more, nothing less.
Thank you for your comments.

Yours sincerely
Roy Dillon

UPDATE 2: Tomahawk Kid responds:

I understand and am quite happy to hear that you do not intend to glamorise a murderer, but what you do not seem to understand Roy is that regardless of what you intend, you are glamorising him - you are pretending that he didn’t commit atrocities on other human beings just because they didn't agree with communism!
If you wish to symbolise rebellion, there are plenty of other popular culture heroes who didn't go around murdering innocent people who you could use.

[But if you really don’t care who you have on your shirts] why don't Hallensteins produce a Hitler T-shirt then? - after all - he just wanted a free Germany (free of Jews and blacks)
I am afraid your excuse is weak and invalid Roy, and for a well-respected family store is in very poor taste.
I'm afraid due to your lack of understanding of this issue I and my family will no longer be spending our money at a store that has such a poor and low regard of human rights - and that is quite a shame because I actually used to shop there quite a bit.
Regards
Xxxxxx Xxxxx

Labels:

64 Comments:

Anonymous Sus said...

Bravo, TK. Nice example of the power of persuasion! :)

11/02/2009 12:35:00 pm  
Blogger Sam P said...

Good work Tomahawk.

11/02/2009 12:46:00 pm  
Anonymous LGM said...

Well done, Tomahawk Kid.

I sure won't be buying anything from Hallensteins in the future. None of my friends are likely to either.

Perhaps the Hallensteins people might like to think again.

LGM

11/02/2009 02:02:00 pm  
Anonymous Julian said...

Bravo Tomahawk kid.

A few months ago I was in Cuba. On the occasions that people tried to sell me Che memorabilia, I told them that I would not be buying products depicting a murderer and a torturer. These people would then turn to me and say..."You know the truth then! you actually know history and Che's background."

The really sad thing is that besides leaving corpses in his wake, Che and his philosophical comrades continue to stifle the dreams and freedoms of millions of Cubans. I invite Mr Roy to go to Cuba and see the true nature of the revolution which he and his company are (maybe unwittingly) promoting.

Julian

11/02/2009 04:50:00 pm  
Anonymous Peter said...

Che Guevara was a sadist who enjoyed killing and tormenting people. This makes him worse in some ways than Stalin and Hitler.

11/02/2009 05:28:00 pm  
Anonymous Sinner said...

And all this crap about not torturing, killing, or throwing people into the gutter is why I'm not a fucking Libz.

Anyone who things NZ can be fixed without 100,000 dead and at least a million, probably two, starving, is completely nuts.

Che had the guts to do what he though was right in Cuba. If more of the Libz had Che's guts, well things might be different here.

Zero benefits. Zero dole. Zero super. Zero health.
Zero "education. Zero welfare.

Zero compensation whatsoever.

That's not "LIbz". It's simply common sense.

11/02/2009 08:13:00 pm  
Blogger WWallace said...

Though Roy probably doesn't read this blog, I'll add my name as an ex-Hallensteins customer. There is plenty of competition -- I'm sure I can find other menswear retailers who know the difference between heroes and thugs.

11/02/2009 08:54:00 pm  
Anonymous Tim said...

I am so over this.

PC, I feel this has definitely gone the wrong way. Why not try championing those poor kids who were punished for dressing like Nazis? Those kids hurt nobody!

I say boo to you, Tomahawk Kid. That's the kind of uppity, busybody, irritating harassment that really annoys me. The guy's selling a shirt, not killing people.

Would you prefer if all clothes were a certain inoffensive shade of grey? Personally, I'd prefer to see T-shirts of Che, Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Pinochet, Pol Pot, Ted Bundy and all the rest, than for upstart little offense-pots like yourself having a say on what clothes are appropriate for the market.

Stop your damned censorship!

11/02/2009 10:25:00 pm  
Blogger Jose said...

Wow, what historically silly and sophist arguments. First -1 for breaking Godwin's law and using a Reductio Ad Hitlerum. Second, Che only reviewed the appeals of 200 or so war criminals who had murdered 20,000 Cubans under Batista's mafia backed dictatorship. The same as Nuremburg after WWII. Read Jon Lee Anderson's 800 page Bio on Che, as you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

"Che Guevara is an inspiration for every human being who loves freedom, we will always honor his memory." --- NELSON MANDELA

11/03/2009 03:36:00 am  
Blogger PC said...

@Sinner: Let me tell you, Libz would not want you. Or Jose. Or Tim.

One thinks it's funny to talk about about the death of "a million people, probably two." One doesn't care about lying to defend the murderer of several thousand. And one just doesn't know enough to know the difference between censorship and persuasion.

And I'm sure at least one of their odious selves works for Hallensteins.

11/03/2009 08:12:00 am  
Anonymous DaveB said...

My wife fired a comment yesterday to Roy Dillon after reading this blog post. So, I am sure that there are Hallensteins suckers that are making comments on this thread.

11/03/2009 08:26:00 am  
Blogger Ruth said...

Hallensteins don't sell Hitler t-shirts because there is no market for them. Or the market would be too small to cover costs.

Knock yourself out protesting if you like, but remember companies are not obliged to 'give back' or to be moral shining lights to the wider communities. Their job is to make money for their shareholders, and the CEO is quite right to let the market decide.

Kudos for him for taking the time to reply politely to the emotive emails.

11/03/2009 09:28:00 am  
Anonymous Sus said...

You're preaching to the converted with regard to what the company can or should be allowed to do here, Ruth, along with who it's responsible to, as well you know.

The point is that a political murderer is a political murderer, no matter what he looks like.

A point that Hallensteins is now aware of -- and, you never know, might think twice about for next time.

11/03/2009 09:43:00 am  
Anonymous Fashion Insider said...

Which is more offensive? Hellenstein's Che t-shirts or Genitals/Pussies/Cocks T-shirts? I think that there is also a huge market for the latter.

11/03/2009 09:55:00 am  
Blogger Greig McGill said...

Ruth: There's also the point that by talking about it here, we attempt to persuade (as opposed to force) people to change their minds and buying behaviour by improving their knowledge.

Nobody is telling Hallensteins they are not allowed to sell such shirts. Just pointing out how repugnant people may find the image, and hopefully encouraging those ignorant of the reasons for that revulsion to learn a bit about them.

If there is a big market for mass murderers on shirts, by all means, let them supply it. Not a business I'd be in myself, but hey, as you say, that's the free market. Let those transactions be conducted with full knowledge rather than in the light of ignorance however.

11/03/2009 10:03:00 am  
Anonymous Monsieur said...

Personally, I think people should be able to sell T-shirts with whatever they like on them.

11/03/2009 10:10:00 am  
Anonymous Monsieur said...

Maybe you should boycott Hugo Boss too.

11/03/2009 10:33:00 am  
Blogger The Tomahawk Kid said...

Ruth
What makes you so sure there is no market for Hitler T-shirts?

I would put money on it that there is!

For decades Teenagers have gone out of their way just to shock their parents and other adults - they always have and they always will.

Look at what happened when Harry (or whoever he is - Princess Diannas son) dressed up as a Nazi.

All the Punks in the 80s wearing Anarchy signs and all the skinheads in England wearing Nazi regallia.

Hitler shirts would sell like hot cakes.

Yes I agree - kudos to him for at least replying - its unfortunate that he is completely ignorant of the attrocities that were committed by somebody who he thinks was just of a rebellious nature.

As for TIM
Come on Tim! - The Family Store is selling T-shirts glamourising a mass murderer because its a cool pic, meanwhile a bunch of kids are put through the wringer for saluting a Nazi flag (they weren't murdering anybody either)- talk about double standards.

There are plenty of people out there prepared to make a buck selling offensive T-Shirts or whatever - let them go for it I say - but a family store chosing to stock an item normalising, glamourising and accepting the practices of such a nasty individual as Che making shoppers believe the things he did were all sanitary and OK is in poor taste. Besides - what censorship are you speaking of?
I just said that I wont be shopping at Hallensteins store - that is me deciding that I no longer chose to deal with somebody who does things I dont agree with. How is that censorship.

After seeing the blood of all his firing squad victims running down the drain, Che realised there was a an opportunity being missed out on, so he started the procedure of milking his prisoners of their blood before he had them shot. Many of his victims were barely able to stand before the firing squad.


If you think this kind of behaviour is all good then I am glad you are not an acquaintance of mine!

Read all about the real Che in the book:

Exposing the Real Che Guevara: And the Useful Idiots Who Idolize Him (Hardcover)
~ Humberto Fontova

11/03/2009 10:33:00 am  
Anonymous LGM said...

Monsieur

Great! How about "Monsieur's mother is a child molester"?


LGM

11/03/2009 10:34:00 am  
Blogger The Tomahawk Kid said...

Thank You Greig - I think you have summed it up perfectly here:

Ruth: There's also the point that by talking about it here, we attempt to persuade (as opposed to force) people to change their minds and buying behaviour by improving their knowledge.

11/03/2009 10:35:00 am  
Blogger Ruth said...

I am well aware that you are trying to persuade Greig.

If you think there is a large market for Hitler shirts by all means raise capital,carry the risk and manufacture them. Like Hallensteins shareholders have carried the risk.

You should be targetting buyers of the shirts, not executives going about their lawful business.

Also plenty of other chains carry Che shirts - The Warehouse, Farmers, Amazon, Billabong. Why single out Hallensteins.

Some disgruntled shareholders perhaps?

11/03/2009 11:00:00 am  
Anonymous Monsieur said...

@ LGM: You asked for my opinion on your T-shirt proposal.
I think you might be over-estimating the market on that one.

11/03/2009 11:07:00 am  
Blogger The Tomahawk Kid said...

No Ruth - not a disgruntled shareholder at all - just a customer.

I walked into Hallensteins with my family looking for clothes for me.
My 12 year old daughter picks up the Che T-shirt and says "Get this one dad!"

I said No thanks, and had to explain why

11/03/2009 12:08:00 pm  
Anonymous LGM said...

Ruth

So it's OK to promote the image of a violent criminal, just so long it's a profitable thing to do.

LGM

11/03/2009 01:05:00 pm  
Anonymous LGM said...

Monsieur

You were not asked about the market or even about what anyone's estimation of the market may or may not be.

You were asked, 'How about "Monsieur's mother is a child molester"?' The question addressed whether a tee-shirt featuring that slogan would be OK with you. You evaded answering.

LGM

11/03/2009 01:16:00 pm  
Anonymous Monsieur said...

LGM: I think it is none of my buisness.

What do you think of Charles Manson T-shirts?

11/03/2009 01:20:00 pm  
Anonymous LGM said...

Monsieur

You're still evading. No surprises there then.

Manson was a low-life criminal. While he wasn't active on the scale of Che, he isn't someone to promote, glamorise or glorify. Wearing a tee-shirt with his leering face on it certainly speaks volumes about the wearer.

LGM

11/03/2009 01:34:00 pm  
Blogger Greig McGill said...

So it's OK to promote the image of a violent criminal, just so long it's a profitable thing to do.

Define "OK"? Would you or I do it? I doubt it. But should people be allowed to do it? Absolutely.

I think Ruth's point is valid, but I don't agree with her that it's not worth educating shareholders, employees, and managers as well as customers.

If it's their business, and they are ignorant of Che's crimes, they might voluntarily choose to pull the product EVEN THOUGH there is a market for it. Shareholders are people too, with their own moral compasses. They don't just automatically demand profit at the expense of everything and everyone else. That's a classic lefty strawman for why capitalism is evil.

11/03/2009 01:59:00 pm  
Anonymous Monsieur said...

@ LGM: You think that if you put "Monsieur's mother is a child molester" on a T-shirt, that this would offend me. It wouldn't. You see that slogan as part of your self-expression, go for it.
You might want to check it's grammar first.

Some kid's like to buy T-shirts that fogey's find offensive. I remember punk and swastikas. The greater the shock, the more they will sell.

11/03/2009 02:04:00 pm  
Anonymous goofey said...

I'm sorry, but I agree with Ruth and the only words that come to mind are 'precious' and 'disingenuous'.

Funny, while I agree with the Tomahawk Kid, I find it a bit surprising that Libertarians are agreeing with him. What happened to the right to offend?

What about this from PC here:

Perhaps we could all simply listen to the wise advice of Hugh Laurie's former comedic partner Stephen Fry:

'It's now very common to hear people say, "I'm rather offended by that", as if that gives them certain rights. It's no more than a whine. It has no meaning, it has no purpose, it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. "I'm offended by that." Well, so fucking what?'

Or Bill Hicks:

"And I've got something else to say to those people who say, 'I'm offended', like some five-year-old child throwing a tantrum. Ready? There are a lot of things in life that are offensive, life itself can be offensive, I myself have a large list of things that offend me...So what!? Grow the **** up! e now live in the 'Age of being offended.' Get over it. Perhaps a little open-mindedness, tolerance, and acceptance may be the antidote to what ails you. Try it and see if your load isn't lifted just a bit. See if your pinched face of fear doesn't relax a tad. Why don't you exercise a little of the faith you say you believe in so much etc etc....you're offended by this material? Well you offend me, where can I send my letters? Huh!?"

In other words, grow the fuck up.

And to paraphrase Johannes Brahms, If there is anyone here whom I have not yet offended, I beg his (or her) pardon.

11/03/2009 02:16:00 pm  
Anonymous goofey said...

Oops, that bold bit should say "We now live in the 'Age of being offended.' Get over it."

Messed up when bolding.

11/03/2009 02:20:00 pm  
Blogger Greig McGill said...

goofey: There's no contradiction! One can be offended, that's fine. It's when one forces others to change their behaviour as a result of the "offending" that there's an issue with libertarian principles. Nobody here is doing that. They are simply wanting sellers and buyers alike to be fully cognisant of the fact that the image displayed on the clothing is that of a mass murderer, and by selling it, they're effectively glorifying him. If they continue to do so, and people continue to buy it, well, the market has spoken. Ignorance helps nobody though.

11/03/2009 02:53:00 pm  
Anonymous Goofey said...

I never used the word 'contradiction'. I said 'precious' and 'disingenuous'. As I said, I agree with the Tomahawk Kid. I just find it a little rich that there is so much support for his views here.

I don't have time to write a full exposition detailing why I think the outrage is a bit faux, but in the words of lawyer Dennis Denuto in The Castle:
"It's the vibe of the thing, your Honour."

11/03/2009 03:20:00 pm  
Anonymous Monsieur said...

The Libz have forgotten freedom of choice. If that T-shirt is not to your taste, don't buy it. But why try to limit other people's choice.

11/03/2009 03:27:00 pm  
Anonymous Sus said...

Hi Goofey .. I think you're being a bit disingenuous yourself in playing the offended card, though.

I despise Che Guevara and everything he stood for. But if you (or another punter) want to wear his mug on your chest, or sell the t-shirts in your store, I'm not stopping you -- and neither would any other lib.

But I might try to persuade you as to why I think Guevara was a bastard.

And if you continued to wear the t-shirt, fine. Your choice.

And if you continued to sell them in your store, I, like TK, might choose to not buy from you any longer.

Surely that's it in a nutshell?

We are still allowed our personal likes and dislikes, for goodness sake -- and make it known.

11/03/2009 04:29:00 pm  
Blogger The Tomahawk Kid said...

Why did the world come down around the ears of those spotty teenagers saluting and bowing to the swastika?

Because through either sheer ignorance or bloody mindedness they were glorifying and making light of the suffering and the attrocities committed by one group of humans over another, and they need to be enlightened that the things the nazis did were EVIL.

And that many good New Zealanders gave up their lives to save us from the same fate

Ditto to Che

11/03/2009 04:32:00 pm  
Anonymous Sus said...

Off the mark again, Mons. Nobody here would ever 'limit people's choice' by force.

******


"It's grammar"

"Some kid's"

"Fogey's"

Ah, it might pay to check your own work before you question another's grammar!

Couldn't resist that, Mons. You did leave yourself wide open! ;)

11/03/2009 04:37:00 pm  
Anonymous Monsieur said...

@Sus: LGM wanted my opinion about his T-shirt idea.
It's a bit like a tatoo, at least get the spelling right.

11/03/2009 05:02:00 pm  
Anonymous Julian said...

Monsieur et al

This is not a Libz issue, or even a political issue. The Tomahawk Kid and other commentators are instead challenging the actions of those who promote moral and philosophical ideas which have killed millions (granted, maybe they do so unwittingly or in ignorance). Why do you not think that our speaking out is honourable? Why the critique? Do you not feel emotion when you see innocent people put up against a wall by advocates of that philosophy and machine-gunned to death, or hung until they suffocate? Where is your humanity? And Ruth, just because a businessman may be selling an item in order to make a profit, this does not make that businessman immune from moral judgement.

Again, none of us are challenging anyone's right to wear or sell products bearing the face of a mass murderer, nor are we basing these comments on us being offended as such. All we are doing is pointing out some facts, and if Mr Roy (or anyone) then continues promoting a person whose ideas seek to dispose of our freedoms to conduct business and make a profit, then at least they cannot be said to be acting in ignorance.

Julian

11/03/2009 05:06:00 pm  
Anonymous goofey said...

Sus, I agree with what you say, and with what TK said. It's the fact that I read this at NotPC that has me befuddled. That is why I say it is a bit precious and disingenuous. This is NotPC!!

Would you support my right to boycott Hallensteins for selling Richard Nixon t-shirts (for example, sorry probably not the best example, but just go with it for the sake of argument) because they would be offensive to me? I would expect to be called a wowser and a busybody, someone who should harden up as it is Hallensteins' right to sell Nixon shirts.

TK, I think the outrage over the Auckland students was over the top. They were simply showing their ignorance. To them that period of history happened a long time ago and their perception of it is probably quite different from that of older people. Sure, what they did was crass and insensitive, but I am sure they never really appreciated their insensitivity.

I don't think they needed to be vilified like they were. Perhaps a teacher could have met with them and explained things, without having to drag them through the media like they were.

11/03/2009 05:14:00 pm  
Anonymous Monsieur said...

@ Julian: Some people see a T-shirt with the image of Che Guevara as representing a mass-murderer, others see the T-shirt as representing a freedom-fighter, others just think the T-shirt looks cool.

Either way it's just a T-shirt. Let people wear what they like.

11/03/2009 05:18:00 pm  
Blogger Greig McGill said...

Let people wear what they like.

Jesus christ. TK has said it. I've said it. Sus has said it. Julian has said it (very eloquently). Nobody is stopping anybody wearing anything. All "we" are doing is expressing distaste, and attempting to ensure our views are heard. There's no censorship. No initiation of force. No limiting of freedom (of speech, or of anything else). Expressing an opinion is all that's going on here. TK has every right to protest the sale of these shirts, and we have every right to agree with him. Don't agree? That's fine. Just *please* stop attributing false motives, or trying to find hypocrisy where none is present.

11/03/2009 06:53:00 pm  
Anonymous Monsieur said...

@ Grieg:
As Ruth has pointed out, Why single out Hallensteins.
There's The Warehouse, Farmers, Amazon, Billabong... to email if you are so outraged.
I am sure Hallenstiens won't try to counter it with any pro-communist propaganda.

11/03/2009 07:35:00 pm  
Blogger libertyscott said...

This is not a political issue around the role of the state. It is a cultural issue. As such it is legitimate for objectivists and libertarians (with a lower case L) to express a view on whether treating the symbols of Marxism tyranny as innocuous is appropriate.

I am sure people wearing anti-Christian or anti-Muslim t-shirts would inspire those offended by this to campaign for such items to not be sold, or boycott the stores concerned. As long as nobody seeks government intervention, then it is very libertarian - it is persuasion, not force being used.

Hallensteins can do as it wishes, members of the public can express an opinion on that, and about others. It's what happens in a free society.

However I'd agree what is more important is persuading people that wearing tshirts with Che or Mao or whatever murderer you wish on your person is no more cool than doing the same with Hitler or (if Godwin's law anal retentives are about) Mussolini.

11/04/2009 04:35:00 am  
Blogger Ruth said...

The market is morally neutral. Libertarians should know that. Business bashing is business bashing - no matter how you dress it up. Maybe when times are a bit better companies can afford to take the moral high ground - that time is not right at the moment. And no one is forcing *you* to buy their goods, after all. So why try and stop others showing their ignorance by wearing Che shirts.

Don't you folk get tired of being perpetually outraged? You sure have a dim view of humanity. Objectivism is supposed to be about 'sense of life', and we only see a glimpse of joy in the beer posts...

11/04/2009 07:16:00 am  
Blogger Greig McGill said...

So why try and stop others showing their ignorance by wearing Che shirts

Why do anything at all, Ruth? Because that's what our individual morals suggest to us is an approach we should take. As long as we recognise that you (or any other individual) have every right to tell us to take a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut, then I see no problem with it.

At least your argument now seems to be just "why bother?" rather than others here suggesting it is somehow "un-libertarian". I can live with that. I'm sure that relieves you greatly! ;)

On the subject of Objectivism - joy of life is necessarily also repugnance at people who enslave or destroy that life.

Fear not, I suspect there'll be a hell of a beer post come Friday. ;)

11/04/2009 07:51:00 am  
Anonymous Monsieur said...

The T-shirt was probably made in communist China. Will you also hassle Hallenstiens about that.

11/04/2009 08:33:00 am  
Blogger The Tomahawk Kid said...

Monsieur - you are just arguing for arguments sake, and making a good job of being obnoxious about it.

I walked into HALLENSTEINS, where I shopped quite frequently for myself and my family when I was made aware of the offending T-shirt.

HALLENSTEINS - not farmers or the Warehouse, or Billabong or whatever. - THAT is why Hallensteins.

A Jewish Company (well, with a name like Hallensteins . . . ) making light of attrocities committed by a mass murderer and Thug, and desensitising the public is in poor taste, and I made it known.

I dont wish my daughter to go round wearing a Che T-shirt today, (well, it must be OK - they sell them at Hallensteins) and then because that is accepted, to wear a shirt with a swastika, Hitler, Mao on it tomorrow.

It is not just naughty, or risque of Hallensteins to sell these - it is irresponsible, and in poor taste, and I would have expected better from a Jewish (if thats what they are) family oriented, store.

If they have done it through ignorance, then educating them is a good thing.

If they have done it because they don't give a shit about the attrocities, then shame on them, and I will now shop elsewhere.

11/04/2009 09:23:00 am  
Anonymous Monsieur said...

Tomahawk - you are just arguing for arguments sake, and making a good job of being obnoxious about it.

11/04/2009 09:47:00 am  
Blogger The Tomahawk Kid said...

I have a sneaking suspicion that a certain Troll has a new pseudonym. Failing that he has a doppelganger

11/04/2009 10:26:00 am  
Anonymous Monsieur said...

@ Tomahawk: Your sneaking suspicion would be wrong.
You seem to have a problem with me expressing my views on a blog which is designed for that activity.

11/04/2009 10:38:00 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

am I missing something, why does Hallensteins alleged Jewishness matter?

11/04/2009 11:00:00 am  
Anonymous Sus said...

Mons is definitely not Red, TK. Different style altogether. Women know these things! (Or maybe it's because I've had my share of his rhetoric!) ;)

But I digress.

Mons, you're being silly. Your first comment on the post was thus:

"Personally, I think people should be able to sell T-shirts with whatever they like on them."

And given that nobody has or ever would disagree with that sentiment, that's the end of it.

Time to move on, kiddo.

11/04/2009 11:02:00 am  
Anonymous Sus said...

Ruth said:

"The market is morally neutral" (and)

"Business bashing is business bashing"

Been thinking about that. Is it?

Let's take Al Gore, for example.

Today's TRN news reported the possibility of his becoming the world's first carbon billionaire after investing heavily in green energy co's, (one of which has just been awarded a huge federal contract).

There are many who dispute the whole carbon-thing as being fraudulent. In light of your previous comments re Guevara & Hallensteins, are you saying that the dissenters shouldn't be entitled to point that out on *moral* grounds - 'business simply being business'?

The point I'm raising is the question as to business being "morally neutral" when the premise is/might be fraudulent?

An extreme example would be those companies that supplied the Third Reich, eg IG Farben.

Just a thought.

11/04/2009 03:37:00 pm  
Anonymous Sus said...

Hi Goofey .. re Nixon.

Firstly, I'd most certainly defend your right to boycott XYZ store for selling Nixon (or any other) t-shirts if they offended you.

I'd totally disagree with your viewpoint (of course!) but I'd defend your right to organise the boycott. And I'd most certainly call you a wowser and tell you to harden up, too! :)

But I agree that the Nixon example isn't a good one, here, or appropriate. I happen to think the man was an arse -- as were those with whom he surrounded himself -- but he & his henchmen stopped rather short of putting *bullets in heads on a regular basis.

There is the matter of degree, don't you think?

(*Please don't mention Kent State!) ;)

11/04/2009 03:52:00 pm  
Anonymous Falafulu Fisi said...

If I owned a clothing store, I would be trying to promote science by printing images of scientists on items such as T-shirts with those of Einstein, Feynman, Bohr, Heisenberg, Schrodinger, Rutherford, Dirac, Maxwell, Faraday, Hawking and so forth. I would also put some of their formulas at the bottom of the image, which might be attractive to buyers.

I once saw a guy wearing a T-Shirt with a print of the Maxwell Equations on the front, and I stopped and asked him if he was a Physicist, but he said no. I also asked him if he understood what was printed on his T-shirt and he said that the storeman who he bought it from, told him that the formulas symbolized man's thinking, achievements & advancements.

The storeman also told him that every modern telecommunication gadgets of today (cellphone, radio, television) have been designed with the (Maxwell's) equations in the mix. The wearer of the T-Shirt didn't know at the time he first saw the T-Shirt that the equations originated from someone known as James Maxwell. Now, this happy customer who bought the T-Shirt with Maxwell's Equations is appreciative of man's achievements which he was proud to show it off (even though he had no clue at all to what are the meanings of the symbols on his t-shirt).

11/04/2009 10:39:00 pm  
Blogger Greig McGill said...

Now *that's* joy of life. Nice! :)

11/05/2009 08:20:00 am  
Blogger Ruth said...

Make and sell your own freedom shirts at www.cafepress.com folks. And it's risk free.

What's the betting none of you will, unlike our corporates and shareholders here in NZ.

All sizzle and no steak, I think.

11/05/2009 06:27:00 pm  
Anonymous Monsieur said...

@ FF: Nice T-shirt idea, except Heisenberg was a Nazi, and Einstien was a Socialist.

@ Ruth: Some pret-a-porter T-shirts for you

11/05/2009 06:40:00 pm  
Anonymous LGM said...

Ruth

Ruth

Already done a few batches of tee-shirts, here and in Australia. It's cheap and it can be fun (except for people wanting them for free).

My favourite tee-shirt remains the one I got in the USA, "Bat-boy escapes!"

LGM

11/05/2009 06:40:00 pm  
Anonymous Falafulu Fisi said...

Correct there Monsieur.

I didn't know that Hesenberg was a Nazi (or under the guidance of Nazi for his weapons development program), until I became aware of it, when the Copenhagen Play/Drama, opened in New Zealand about 8 years ago, which I went to see (venue was Aotea Center). It was locally produced, but based on the original UK play I think. The local Copenhagen play casts (3 of them), were David Aston, Stuart Devenie and Ilona Rodgers.

I guess that most people don't know today, that he was a Nazi, but he is more known for his academic/theoretical work, then this association. But I think that a t-shirt with Heisenberg's image printed on it cannot be equated to murderous thug like Che. IF the wearer can think Physics when wearing it, rather than thinking Nazi, I think that would be no problems with many.

11/06/2009 07:26:00 am  
Blogger Greig McGill said...

To play devil's advocate for a second here FF...

IF the wearer can think rebellion for freedom and not murder when wearing a Che T-Shirt...

;)

11/06/2009 07:29:00 am  
Anonymous Falafulu Fisi said...

Yeah Greg, your analogy can be applied right there, but I think that there were some good characters from Heisenberg himself during his involvement with the Nazi in WW2, if those historical speculations were indeed correct (see below), then his image printed on a T-Shirt is no way equivalent or to be equated to one with a Che image.

Heisenberg's WW2 involvement is covered in the following link, which I have cut & pasted this paragraph/s:

Quote:
======
The debate about Heisenberg's views on the use of atomic weapons is centered on the period from 1939-1942, during which time Germany made a decision not to pursue a nuclear weapons programme. During this period, several events give insight into Heisenberg's role in that decision. At various points evidence during the period suggested that Heisenberg deliberately was steering Germany's research efforts toward developing nuclear energy, rather than nuclear weapons. Some evidence suggests that Heisenberg attempted to communicate these views to the Allies. For example, in April 1941 a German Jewish physicist, Fritz Reiche, arrived in the United States bearing a message from Heisenberg's colleague and friend Fritz Houtermans which was relayed to American officials in the following handwritten note:

"a reliable colleague [Houtermans] who is working at a technical research laboratory asked him [Reiche] to let us know that a large number of German physicists are working intensively on the problem of the uranium bomb under the direction of Heisenberg, that Heisenberg himself tries to delay the work as much as possible, fearing the catastrophic results of a success."[1]


You can read more detail about it here on New World Encyclopedia.

Werner Heisenberg

Again, if those historical speculations were true, then a Heisenberg T-short is something to be applauded, if you see one wearing such a shirt. I think that you should walk up and ask him/her to shake hand.

11/06/2009 08:42:00 am  
Blogger The Tomahawk Kid said...

Lucky you didn't put money on it Ruth!

My full page adverts in The Free Radical (See issue 77) featuring 12 designs would have taken you to the cleaners I'm Afraid

Slogans like" Communism has only killed 100 million people - Why not give it another try"

Save the kiwi - Sell it by the kilo

Nanny state has gone berserk

Wake up and smell the coffee (before they ban that too)

Not taxpayer funded
FCK the IRD

and the bestseller Che Clark - (my hitler shirt is in the wash)

All only $45 each

11/09/2009 10:52:00 am  

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