Tuesday, 5 September 2017

The primary difference between Nazism (national socialism) and traditional socialism


The primary difference between Nazism (national socialism) and traditional socialism is that while the traditional socialist divides the world along lines demarcated by class, the national socialist divides the world along lines demarcated by race.

Both are thoroughgoing collectivists. This is their essential similarity. The only essential difference between them is to which mass of humanity the particular collectivist demands that individuals sacrifice.   One puts human beings in a collective pot according to where they work; the other according to where they were born – but to each of these two variants of collectivism “the individual has reality only as part of the group, and value only insofar as he serves it.”

Thus, as Ludwig Von Mises explains, where traditional socialism seeks a specially privileged position for the members of a definite class, “national socialism is a system of socialism which seeks a specially privileged position for the members of a definite nation.”

And where the pre-and-post-World War I Internationale aimed at a socialist organisation of the world in which the working masses of the proletariat would be assigned a privileged position, while the blood and riches of the bourgeoisie would serve this new dictatorship, “the pre-World War II German National Socialist Party aimed at a socialist organisation of the world in which the people of ‘pure German blood’ would be assigned a privileged position, while members of the ‘inferior’ races would be assigned tasks where they would serve the ‘Master (German) race.’

The essential similarity in both cases is the sacrifice of the individual to the collective. The only essential difference is which particular sub-division of the collective is granted supremacy – or, to put it another way: who, in each case, is sacrificed to whom.

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11 comments:

  1. And also, from Stephen Hicks's book 'Nietzsche and the Nazis": "As much as the Nazis hate capitalism, they do not see the world as a battle between economic groups. The Marxists, as they see it, are obsessed with and too narrowly focused on money. To the Nazis money is only part of the battle—the major battle is between different racial and cultural groups with different biological histories, languages, values, laws, and religions. The battle is between Germans—with their particular biological inheritance and cultural history—against all other racial cultures."

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  2. “National socialism is a system of socialism which seeks a specially privileged position for the members of a definite nation"

    That's correct except it wasn't a system of socialism at all.
    Long before they went after the Jews the Nazis crushed the unions, the communists and other actual socialists, while cosying up to the corporate elite who made a truckload of cash under the regime. Does that sound like socialism to you?

    Mises either knew jack shit about the Nazis, or like todays right-wingers, found the right-wing nature of the Nazis inconvenient & felt compelled to spread misinformation.

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    1. The Nazis and the communists were simply two collectivists fighting over the same territory, and in crushing these movements they were simply removing their competitors?

      You're aware that many of Hitler's recruits came directly from the ranks of the communists (who came to understand that the Nazis were simply fellow travellers)?

      That when it suited them, Hitler and Stalin enjoyed a pact of non-aggression that saw the Bolsheviks help train and supply the German military?

      That before the war, Mises himself was chased out of Europe by the Nazis? (You'd surely grant him some knowledge of the vermin who chased him out, wouldn't you, Ben?)

      Or maybe it's you, Ben, that knows very little. Did you know for example that Hitler declared, in a speech in 1927 (to take just one example out of many), that "We are socialists, we are enemies of the capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak ... and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions."

      Compared to the Nazis, the Bolsheviks were pikers. Where the Bolsheviks nationalised businesses, the Nazis nationalised minds. (That was their own formulation.) But that didn't stop them nationalising property too: dissolving all businesses with capital under $40,000 and sweeping those remaining into state-controlled cartels. So with the dissolution of the labour unions (how many genuine labour unions existed under the Bolsheviks, Ben?) all ppoperty and labour was controlled by the State.

      To repeat the point in the post above however, the Nazis' focus was not on economic groupings, which are distributed across nations (making the original Marxists globalists) but on *racial groupings* -- which made them nationalists, rejecting "any form of internationalism or cosmopolitanism. These themes explain the design of the Nazis’ swastika flag, as a symbolic integration of the socialism and the nationalism. Red is symbolic of socialism, white is symbolic of nationalism, and the swastika is, according to Hitler, representative of the Aryan struggle for racial and cultural supremacy against those who are trying to destroy the Germans. [Stephen Hicks, 'Nietzsche and the Nazis']"

      So: socialism + nationalism, just precisely as it says on the label: National Socialism.

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    2. I like how you're extremely cynical of politicians/governments, yet you insist Hitler was telling the truth in his speeches on socialism. Hilarious.

      "You're aware that many of Hitler's recruits came directly from the ranks of the communists (who came to understand that the Nazis were simply fellow travellers)?"

      Bullshit. Unless you're talking about those who switched allegiances to save themselves & their families, which hardly makes them ideologically identical.

      "That when it suited them, Hitler and Stalin enjoyed a pact of non-aggression that saw the Bolsheviks help train and supply the German military?"

      A couple of tyrants had a brief pact when it suited them. Then Hitler broke it by invading the USSR. So what?

      "That before the war, Mises himself was chased out of Europe by the Nazis? (You'd surely grant him some knowledge of the vermin who chased him out, wouldn't you?"

      You'd sure think so, yet he was as wrong about Nazi politics as he was about his praxeology nonsense.

      Yes, the Nazis nationalised the economy. So did most other nations during the war.

      If the Nazis' focus was racial, not economic, then they weren't socialists! Common ownership of the means of production is a central tenet of a socialist regime. If you don't believe me, consult a dictionary.

      Hitler wrote of the Swastika in Mein Kampf "in red we see the social idea of the movement". This is not the same as representing leftist socialism, and it's intellectually dishonest to say that it is.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_socialism

      If you're game enough to read a source other than Mises or Hicks, check out that Wikipedia article, including the sources and the 'talk' page. For all of Wikipedia's flaws, for something to remain in an article it must be well sourced. The claim that the Nazis were socialists does not hold up to academic scrutiny.

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  3. Ben - Why is it so important for you to try and demonstrate that the National Socialists were not socialists? The similarities in political philosophy between the Nazi's and other socialists have been shown, and the unique aspects that differentiated them other socialists acknowledged. But the differences are not fundamental, and you've failed to show them as fundamental. It doesn't really matter what your dictionary or Wikipedia links say, or whether you apply a broad or narrow definition of socialism, the point remains they were cut from the same cloth.

    Is it because you consider yourself a socialist, and you believe the differences to fascism are fundamental? If so explain what the differences are, and why you consider them more important than the similarities we've noted. That will gain you a lot more respect, and would be a lot intellectually sound than these puerile attempts at one-upmanship.

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    1. More to the point Mark - Why are libertarians latching on to a pet delusion of American right wingers?

      Nazis and socialists (egalitarians) are not cut from the same cloth at all: they are fundamentally opposed.

      "It doesn't matter what the dictionary says"

      Face-palm. Yes it does. It also matters what the consensus among historians is. Including, of course, Nazi experts based in Germany.

      http://www.snopes.com/2017/09/05/were-nazis-socialists/

      I'm trying to do you unwitting far-right tools a favour: if you go around in public saying "Hitler was a leftist socialist" people will assume you're a dipstick who never went to school. Although in your case Mark, that's probably going to be the case regardless.

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    2. Ben - your evasion of my question/challenge is noted, as I half expected. So I think this will be the last time I engage with you. You assert the differences are fundamental, but like most things you write it's an assertion without substance. You've failed to show the differences are fundamental, and ignored the fundamental similarities we've pointed out.

      All you offer instead is ad hominum and smart-arsery in lieu of rational argument. That's usually a sign that deep down someone knows they're on shaky ground. I enjoy debating honest socialists, and whilst you may be a socialist, I doubt you're honest.

      You've also adopted one hell of a weird epistemology too; one that regards dictionary definitions and google links as primary to the reality they are trying to describe. That, when combined with an inability to separate the fundamental from the incidental is really quite weird, which is probably why you throw that accusation around at me and others (projection).

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    3. Since I'm in a charitable mood Mark, I'll explain one more time.

      Nazis: Racist, fascist regime dedicated to the military & serving the Fuhrer & master race. Doesn't ban private ownership & does extensive business with foreign & domestic corporations.

      Socialism: Dedicated to a classless, egalitarian society where businesses are communally owned.

      They're fundamentally different. I hope you can understand this time because I don't think I can explain in simpler terms.

      How the fuck can dictionary definitions be primary to what they describe? What came first - history or the links of historians describing history? Idiot. Stop pretending you know what epistemology means if you can't understand the basics of Nazism or socialism.

      Are the neo-Nazi Trump supporters at "unite the right" rallies leftists? Is it socialist to advocate for a police state to round up immigrants? Do yourself a favour and get some education outside of American far-right echo chambers.

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  4. Getting nervous are you Peter the Jew ??!!!
    You should be..You Jews have run out of Rope.....
    The Fire is rising and when we white Nordics rise this time... Zionist traitors like you will know exactly what karma feels like.
    Perigo knows exactly who you are and many many others
    Tick tock tick tock..sleep soundly as a rat in your warm little nest as a storm is coming little rat..
    You dug your nest too deep

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  5. Hitler got to be very popular amongst the Germans(for a while).Is that a sin?

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  6. Alternatively, try the "Big Lie", #1 best seller. It is compelling.

    The common theme in both ideologies is BIG GOVERNMENT. It was just the means that varied. The end goal the same. FDR and JFK were big admirers of Hitler, before all hell broke loose. Those death camp images not so good for PR.

    Mussolini was the number 1 socialist in Italy, before he side stepped into fascism. All leading fascists were socialists! Hitler was tapping into German pride of nation because the Marxist class war wasn't cutting it.

    Western apologists leapt onto the Nationalist part of National Socialism. They needed to redefine Nazi's or the Marxists were doomed. They needed badly to whitewash the socialist goal of complete government control of society. FDR had a major soft spot for his buddy Joe, Joe Stalin, killer of 100million. Nationalism not the enemy. Nationalism is what you feel when you go to the footy and root for the all blacks.

    True right wing is someone who loves freedom. Freedom from government. Natural law = freedom from PC bullshit peddlers. Government derives its power from the will of the people. Government works for us.

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