Monday, May 30, 2011

Perigo for Brash [updated]

Don Brash isn’t the only one who’s just recently joined ACT. So too has Lindsay Perigo.

He explains his reasons here.

UPDATE:  If you want to see why the opinions of the blogosphere can be so readily dismissed as brainless slop, please refer to the comments on this very topic at both Kiwiblog and Dim Post.

Of intelligent life, there is none.

Mind you, they haven’t been much better over here, have they.

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41 Comments:

Anonymous Falafulu Fisi said...

I think that Lindsay is right. The members of the Libertarianz should get behind Don and ACT. Give your party vote for ACT. Its time to stop taking snipes at ACT. Its time that Libz stops making snide remark about ACT and get behind Don Brash.

If the Libz don't get behind Don, the I'm afraid that the Union has been right all along in their motto. United we stand (have a chance) and divided we fall (no chance whatsoever).

Give it a chance.

5/30/2011 09:45:00 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree with Fisi. The reality is that the Libz have been alone in the wilderness and nobody has heard our message in sufficient numbers to yield an electoral response. I am hesitant about ACT but provided the support for them is conditional on Don's presence in the Party I can live with the idea, at least for this electoral cycle.

5/30/2011 10:11:00 am  
Blogger PC said...

@Anonymous: Who's this "I" you keep taking about? If *you* want to be taken seriously, use either a name or an argument.

5/30/2011 10:31:00 am  
Blogger Greig McGill said...

I feel similarly. I vowed that I'd never again vote ACT after being so utterly betrayed, but I feel that standing on pure principle is not only getting us nowhere, it's possibly hurrying the downward slide.

The rational solution seems to be to lend a vote to something with the most practical chance of halting the rot. Much as it galls me to vote ACT, unless there's a very compelling reason not to do so, I think that's the way forward.

Does anyone have a solid counter argument?

5/30/2011 10:34:00 am  
Blogger Warm and Loving said...

Perigo is being pragmatic by accepting he’s never going to get into power under the Libz banner. He’s also happy with a political party that may not be 100% what drives him but prefers this to sniping from the sidelines, change from within. A few months ago Peter you were predicting the oblivion of ACT yet here they are with New Zealands most high-profile Libertarian onboard, new leadership & momentum. The time has come for Libz to join with the new ACT and create a political party we can both aspire to.

5/30/2011 01:54:00 pm  
Blogger Greig McGill said...

Warm: To be fair to Peter, at the time of that prediction, the facts were very different. There's a name for people who won't update their predictions or opinions in the face of new evidence. We call them "religious people". ;)

5/30/2011 02:01:00 pm  
Blogger Dave Mann said...

I* agree with the others here. Also, being only 65% Libertanrianz (politically speaking) myself, I guess its an easier transition for me! hahaha.

Like Greig, though, I have felt uterly betrayed as an ACT voter recently.... so here's hoping for a turnaround under their new management.

Cheers,

Dave Mann

* "I" am a collection of mental, emotional and physical responses which are the result of external stimulii received through the process of my consciousness.

5/30/2011 02:02:00 pm  
Blogger The Tomahawk Kid said...

Lindsay is not asking we change our ideas or philosophy
He is simply asking for a VOTE.

NOTHING (apart from perhaps another philosophy based on rights facts and reason of course), could persuade me from changing my Libertarian principles, BUT voting for ACT will give me somewhere to use my VOTE, that MAY help my/our cause.

I think all we are talking about is a VOTE - not changing our philosophy or ideas to a soft-cock version of our principles which I will NOT do. I have been through all this before, and learnt a very valuable lesson in why they should not be compromised

I have long been of the opinion that The best of 2 evils is still evil
I still adhere to that

But the way I see it is:

1 road is in the DIRECTION of Freedom
1 road is in the direction of COMMUNISM

If many die on the way to FREEDOM, at least SOME may eventually get there because its SPIRIT (thats us) will be kept alive
If many die on the road to COMMUNISM, the survivors get COMMUNISM - I dont want that for my great grandchildren

A little while ago I would rather chop off my fingers than vote for ACT, but perhaps a success for THEM would help keep the spirit of life as WE would like it kept alive, because as much as many of us have tried, it doesnt seem to have been very effective.

5/30/2011 04:37:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Before you all go rushing off to help out ACT; don't forget that with one Brash you get a Banks. And um, where were your new found position comments last week i.e., before Linz made his statement?

5/30/2011 04:54:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Peter: I apologise for signing off at 10.11am today without including my name. I was interrupted while writing. Given that today is a work day and I was at my office, interruptions are relatively commonplace. I am surprised that an oversight can so resoundingly culminate in my not being taken seriously. Ought I conclude that you disagree? Anyway sorry for my inadvertent lack of grace. This is your domain and you are entitled to regiment it.

Chris Robertson.

5/30/2011 06:45:00 pm  
Blogger James said...

If this has gingered Libz up to consider joining ACT and attempting to bolster it against backsliding into a socially conservative waste of time then I say bravo....and may have to swallow the dead rat of J Banks and rejoin to fight the good fight.

5/30/2011 07:24:00 pm  
Anonymous Lolasaurus said...

Oh this is great. Perigo starts mooching off the stolen-at-gunpoint earnings of the productive and all of a sudden it's fine, because he's doing it to help that great libertarian John Banks get elected! I thought you guys had principles...

5/30/2011 09:16:00 pm  
Anonymous Richard McGrath said...

@Lolasaurus - I think you will find that Lindsay Perigo - without pretending for one minute that I speak for him - despises John Banks and would not work to get him elected. Don Brash is a different beast altogether, trying to get ACT to stick to its principles.

My guess is that Perigo will do everything to make sure that happens (adhesion to principle) and to advise Brash when ACT strays from the values of maximum freedom and limited government - which just happens to be the same objective that drives the Libertarianz Party.

5/30/2011 09:41:00 pm  
Anonymous Richard McGrath said...

@FFF - Libz will continue to support Don Brash's leadership of ACT, and the ACT Party, provided their leader doesn't take his girlfriend overseas and claim "But I was entitled!", or expand the size and cost of local government in, say, Auckland. That sort of thing makes us want to 'snipe'. And if Libz don't do it, who will?

5/30/2011 09:48:00 pm  
Anonymous ACT Youth said...

Ha! You can see the commenters at Dimpost and you can giggle at them. They're the illiterate of the blogosphere including Russel Brown, Andrew Geddis and others. They can't reason beyond primary school level.

5/30/2011 11:21:00 pm  
Blogger Greig McGill said...

Tomahawk: voting and principle are inextricably bound, I'm afraid. If I stuck firmly to my principles, those principles wouldn't let me vote for ACT. I will, as you say, retain my principles, in that I won't change what I believe, but I will acknowledge that there is a degree of personal hypocrisy in taking the pragmatic option here.

As you say though, there is little choice, and I agree with you that there are two paths available here.

I consider Peter to be an extremely principled person, whom I've come to admire, and as such, I'd really like him to weigh in here on his own post.

5/31/2011 08:07:00 am  
Blogger Andrew B said...

No way I'm voting ACT from over here.

Unless you want to see the end of Libz don't throw your weight in behind them - you're ignoring the other compulstion touting elements of ACT.

Of course, if you do want to see the end of Libz and found a new, Objectivism-based Capitalist Party then go ahead and put your hand up and say so - but let Libz activists know why you've abandoned the Party.

5/31/2011 08:29:00 am  
Anonymous ACT Youth said...

Hehe, my comment on this thread at the top on the illiteracy of Russel Brown, Andrew Geddis at Dimpost has truly rattles the illiterates themselves.

http://dimpost.wordpress.com/2011/05/30/ach-du/

Russel Brown conceded that he's an illiterate. WHY? He thinks that Peter Cresswell is an overlord (on that Dimpost thread).

5/31/2011 09:55:00 am  
Blogger Dave Mann said...

On the subject of principles, I wrote on Kiwiblog that I thought it was quite a rational thing to do for Lindsay to step out into the real world and forsake the cloud cuckoo land of political extremism for the sale of actually having a chance to contribute something meaningful.

The time, I think, has come when the Libz need to acknowledge that they are not going to acheive a hell of a lot by adhering religiously (!!!) to absolutes and extremes. It might well be a much better plan to influence opinion from WITHIN rather than stay out in the cold and continue pissing into the wind.

5/31/2011 11:30:00 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

...I thought it was quite a rational thing to do for Lindsay to step out into the real world and forsake the cloud cuckoo land of political extremism for the sale of actually having a chance to contribute something meaningful.

Mr Cresswell has contributed "something meaningful" on this blog for many years without compromising his principles and holding contradictions.

Libz and genuine libertarians are not in "cloud cuckoo land" either.

Folk like you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

5/31/2011 11:53:00 am  
Anonymous ACT Youth said...

Dave Mann, you said that It might well be a much better plan to influence opinion from WITHIN rather than stay out in the cold and continue pissing into the wind, which I do agree completely.

Hey all you Libz, wake up and stop pissing on yourself, because it stinks.

5/31/2011 11:54:00 am  
Blogger Dave Mann said...

@anonymous:

I really like this blog and I have done for some years, but much as I respect Peter for his intellect, his culture and his rationality I really don't think that the volume of readership here is likely to move mountains. We all tend to be either a talking to the converted or poking back at the few socialists who come here to poke the stick.

Whereas the electorate has consistently rejected the Libz and have given them no chance at all to be represented in parliament, Don Brash, on the other hand, with Lindsay Perigo's help, stands to achieve real change at a POLITICAL level if he manages this election right.

I don't adhere 100% to Libz policies in every respect, but I strongly lean towards a libertarian world view in many areas and I resent your mindless assertion that I am part of the problem. Who the fuck do you think you are?

5/31/2011 12:17:00 pm  
Blogger PC said...

Might I suggest before going off any more half-cocked that some of you--or even one of you--actually pause to read Mr Perigo's reasoning for doing this.

It's not difficult. All you have to do is click the link supplied above.

5/31/2011 12:19:00 pm  
Blogger PC said...

@Chris: The problem with anonymity here is that if you simply post an opinion without any further justification than "I think..." "I am hesitant..." "I can live with...", then for others to judge that opinion they have to know who the "I" is.

And in the absence of that knowledge, the opinion is just so many empty words.

5/31/2011 12:22:00 pm  
Blogger Dave Mann said...

Peter, I DID read it, actually, and I thought I was correct in understanding that Lindsay accepts that it might be a good idea to compromise somewhat (i.e. with a 65% Libertarian) because "his becoming Act leader has brought a glimmer of hope to New Zealand's economic and political landscape, which otherwise was unfailingly bleak."

Have I failed to understand something?

5/31/2011 12:29:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Peter: I take your point, but as I say, my anonimity was due to interruptions.

Chris R
PS I am mindful that a decision whether Libz fields candidates despite Linz's present position needs to be made quite soon.

5/31/2011 01:08:00 pm  
Blogger Dave Mann said...

Hey, Peter old chap.... what do you think about Lindsay's decision to work to help out his 65% Libertarian mate Don Brash? Is that a move you can live with?

5/31/2011 01:09:00 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

@Dave Mann:

The spread of evil is the symptom of a vacuum. Whenever evil wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic principles. - Ayn Rand


“The Anatomy of Compromise,” Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal

5/31/2011 01:16:00 pm  
Blogger Dave Mann said...

@anonymous:

"My father was a great man; he told me so himself. He said "I am a GREAT man!".... and you can't argue with facts like that, folks."

- Spike Milligan

5/31/2011 02:17:00 pm  
Blogger Paul Walker said...

I make brief comments on this here. In short, this will do more good for Act than it will do for Perigo.

5/31/2011 02:21:00 pm  
Anonymous Lolasaurus said...

"Whenever evil wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic principles."

Can't remember who said that, but where will Perigo's salary be coming from again? And is the abolition of taxation Act policy now?

5/31/2011 08:25:00 pm  
Anonymous Mike Webber said...

Libz have very little in common with ACT and should not be associated with them. They are a party that wishes to control people and force us to pay compulsory tax.
We are not.
It is important that we are not seen as a right wing party, but as a group working towards the freedom of the individual. I argued with Trotter over this right wing crap in a letter to the paper some years ago, when he claimed that the Libz. were a right wing party. The right are just much control freaks as the left. I too have wished for the end of ACT and all the other socialist and fascist political groups in our political scene. I do have a lot of respect for Don Brash, his intellect and his at least half pie libertarianism. I have met and spoken with him twice. Without him, ACT would be history after the next election. As many others have said he is a step in the correct direction which we can and probably should publicly support, but only carefully making sure that we only support Brash and any move towards individual liberty, property rights and smaller Government, not ACT itself. Until recently Libertarianism was almost never mentioned in the media, even when we got 7000 votes, which was largely because of Lindsay's radio program. Along with many others I stood in that election, but we got no media attention. In the last two years or so, Libertarians are often in the news of the MSM, here and America and being criticised in many blogs, which means we are having some influence,which is ignored by the detractors concentrating on votes. Do we want to be in parlaiment or do we want our principles and policies there.

5/31/2011 09:35:00 pm  
Blogger Greig McGill said...

To those saying that any compromise is an abandonment of Libertarian policies (and doing so with quite a lot of bile too, I might add), I'd refer you to Libz' own stated policies should it ever achieve a majority in government. A transition phase. What is that, if not a serious of reducing compromises?

I didn't ask for abuse above, I stated how I feel about this, what I'll be doing as a result of how I've weighed the facts involved, and if there was a well reasoned argument to the contrary.

The day one ceases to change one's mind based on convincing argument or in the face of factual information, is the day one ceases to be rational.

6/01/2011 10:06:00 am  
Blogger Greig McGill said...

a series of reducing compromises...

6/01/2011 10:08:00 am  
Anonymous Mort said...

incremental change....
how do you think the leftists have gotten to where they are today.
The populace fear change, and radical shifts despite the logic and 'goodness' of them will always scare them away. This is why Libertarianz are considered extremists, and the very reason that the MSM get away with calling ACT's policies radical right wing extremism. When you actually look at the damn things they are a soft-on version of what that Fabian communist currently trying to ruin our nearest neighbour espouses as good policy.
Currently the socialists are winning in NZ. They have managed to hijack the 'Party of Business' into propogating welfarism and slowly but surely destruction of property rights that give support and essence to the individual. Is it true to say that Perigo is recognising this, coupled with the abject failure of the MSM to allow a contra argument to be aired in a sensible manner; Thus leading to his decision to get in the ring and actually help to formulate a plan and an agenda to get the argument across?
the argument will only be won incrementally. Small steps, will pull the spectrum from idiocy/ communal mediocrity towards individualism and a meritocracy. Common sense will prevail, if the common-sense argument is allowed to be aired.

6/01/2011 11:55:00 am  
Blogger Blair said...

Welcome aboard the pragmatism bus everyone! It took some of you a while, but better late than never...

I look forward to seeing all of you in National in three years time, after which we can REALLY start shaking things up! ;-)

6/01/2011 12:14:00 pm  
Anonymous Lolasaurus said...

Act's and Brash's principles are nothing like yours. And yet you've all moved in lock-step with Perigo. Act and Brash haven't compromised at all - in fact by putting Banks on the ticket they've moved further away from your ostensible position. At least Perigo's getting paid for it (albeit from the stolen earnings of the productive), yo guys are all bending over.

6/01/2011 07:03:00 pm  
Blogger Oswald Bastable said...

Praise Galt, Perigo still has his shit together!

6/01/2011 08:21:00 pm  
Anonymous Mort said...

Blair, sometimes the divide if too far to bridge, Currently National's governance principles and those of regular readers here are oceanic, as in the Bering straight.

6/02/2011 06:34:00 am  
Anonymous B Whitehead said...

It's early days yet & we have yet to see if Don Brash, Lindsay Perigo, John Banks & the rest of ACT can form a cohesive team. We have yet to see what their other policies will be & I have serious doubts as to what John Banks is doing in all this.
It's interesting that the policies that are known are similar to the Labor Party's policies in Australia & yet ACT are labelled 'rightwing'. That illustrates just how far left NZ has become.
I wish Lindsay & Don well & will support them if & when, it's appropriate to do so.
However Libz has been far more consistent in their philosophy & policies over the years & thats where I'm staying.

6/02/2011 10:57:00 am  
Blogger Heine said...

This ex ACT member is horrifed that Lindsay would do such a thing, no matter the well written reasoned explanation.

Look at all the Nats clamouring on board the Brash express? Banks as the point man, Clarkson as the numbers man and no doubt many others who wouldn't know liberty if it was sitting on their faces. When the election is all done and dusted, it is going to be hard to see how it will all piece itself together. I don't see it happening and hope the Libz keep their wits about them and get the hell away from ACT.

Keep up the good work Peter.

6/03/2011 02:00:00 am  

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