Thursday, June 03, 2010

Gaza: A reality check [updated]

Gazans are suffering under a yoke of Israeli-inflicted poverty. Yeah right.

Hamas just wants peace with Israel. Yeah right.

Their peace-loving government is unmercifully oppressed by Israel. Yeah right.

Palestine is at the mercy of America’s pro-Israel foreign policy.  Yeah right.

Palestinians just want peace and a better life. Yeah right.

There can be no justification for Israel’s blockade against Gaza. Yeah right.

The peace flotilla was organised and manned by peace activists. Yeah right.

It’s all about getting aid to suffering Gazans. Yeah, right.

UPDATE: The convoy: another reality check courtesy The Roadkill Diaries:

Peter Hitchens on a certain "Aid Convoy":

    “If you want to be wholly dispassionate, you might call it a 'convoy' without adornment. But to call it an 'Aid Convoy' is itself a departure from neutrality. I myself would call it a propaganda fleet, but then I am openly partisan on this issue. The use of the expression 'humanitarians' is likewise suspect, as is the use of the word 'activists' without saying what sort of activists they are. ..
    “It emerges that these ships were not entirely peopled by pacifist vegetarian idealists from the Isle of Wight.
    “For instance…”

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13 Comments:

Anonymous Frankie Lee said...

An impartial view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from the Ayn Rand Institute? Yeah right.

6/03/2010 12:24:00 pm  
Blogger Adz said...

Oh please..

And you seriously consider yourself a Libertarian? How embarrassing..

You're a puppet of the Israelis

6/03/2010 12:52:00 pm  
Blogger Tim Johnston said...

Thankyou for presenting the facts in a balanced way. Not everyone appreciates the naked truth.

6/03/2010 01:15:00 pm  
Blogger twr said...

Ok, the idea of a comments section is so people can present reasoned arguments in support of, or opposed to, the viewpoint offered. If you guys disagree with what's here, perhaps you could provide alternative links to back up your views?

6/03/2010 01:40:00 pm  
Anonymous Pro-Capitalist said...

The mid-east problem has been prolonged over the last half a century or so, because of guilty white liberals in the West, such as the likes of local pro-Palestinians as Ruth, Keith Locke, John Minto and many others. There are also millions of pro-Palestinians from around the world.

The problem is caused by their sympathy towards Palestinian terrorists and their people, which make Palestinian people think that they're the victims as a result of the West’s' & Israel's mid-east policies. Does this sound like the DPB solo mothers? Sure.

If the state thinks that DPB solo mums need the sympathy of the country's taxpayers, then solo mums will keep reproducing and popping babies because of the state's sympathy/generosity towards them. As a result, solo mums will never have any motivation to look for employment to lift them out of poverty.

Palestinians have felt that they're refugees (for the last 50 years or so) in their own land, and being refugees, in their minds they're destined to be destitute forever. FFS, no one can claim that he/she has been a refugee for 50 years. The Palestinian apologists in the West, make those Palestinians who grew up in refugee camps feel like that they're helpless, while in fact, if they (Palestinians) want to make a better life for themselves, then they should start doing something real for themselves such as getting serious about making peace with Israel and stop playing the bullshit victim game. If apologists simply ignore the Palestinians, then their problem can be gone in 10 years time (or even less). They will be prosperous, high achievers in education and so forth.

Watch out for the next 50 years, because Palestinians, will still be moaning about the same old shit over and over again.

6/03/2010 01:46:00 pm  
Blogger Ruth said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

6/03/2010 03:59:00 pm  
Blogger Ruth said...

I think you will find, "Pro-Capitalist", that reasonable folk who try to be objective do not think that Israel deserves to be reflexively defended in all situations, especially when that necessarily involves undermining the USA's relationship with other allies...

As far as the DPB goes, Israel is a good example if you look at the billions of dollars of aid it gets from the US - paying for universal healthcare and so on. Facts are inconvenient things.

6/03/2010 04:01:00 pm  
Blogger Adz said...

1. Yes, Gazan's are suffering under Israel's inflicted poverty, the tunnels don't smuggle as much in as you think and the fact is that at the end of the day, they take away competition which causes prices to rise.

2. Don't be so dishonest, whilst Hamas' stated goal is the liberation of all Palestinian lands as an organization they have state that they would settle instead for a peace agreement. They have explicitly said numerous times that they agree with the Arab Peace Initiative which would guarantee Israel recognition as a state and give peace and economic ties.

3. Hamas has agreed to ceasefires in the past which Israel has broken and Hamas has adhered to despite the fact that they have been attacked by blockade, an act of war.

4. Palestine is at the mercy of America's pro Israel policy, the US supplies the majority of weapons used against the Palestinians through military aid which in turn funds the military industrial complex and impedes on the liberty .

5. Who are you to state that the Palestinians don't want peace and a better life? All humans want this and a better life for their children.. Part of your problem is that you look at Arabs, Palestinians and also Muslims to be somewhat subhuman, animalistic in fact and therefore you can't fathom that they simply want to live in peace and have a better life.

6. There is no justification for Israel's blockade on Gaza. It was put on because the Palestinian people DEMOCRATICALLY elected Hamas as their government and has been on ever since even though at the time and since then Hamas have affirmed and reaffirmed their intention to come to a settlement with the Isrealis on the matter. The fact is that the Israelis covet the land and are trying to force the Palestinians to leave by their blockades..

7. The Flotilla was full of peace activists.. The Israelis illegally boarded the ship in international waters despite the fact without just cause and broke the law of the sea, the people on that boat had every right to resist the Israeli soldiers on there because piracy is still piracy, whether it's committed by a state or not..

8. It is about getting aid to suffering Palestinians, they haven't been able to rebuild properly after their homes were bombed to pieces by the Israelis in 2008.

There can't be any peace in those lands until there is equality and justice, the Israeli idea of peace is that the Palestinian people sit down and die quietly or leave while being oppressed.. That isn't peace, people deserve dignity..

It's quite embarrassing that you're so closely associated with the Libertarianz.. I can't see anything Libertarian about you from this post..

Adonis

6/04/2010 07:26:00 pm  
Blogger Tim Johnston said...

Adonis/Adz

I follow quite a few Libertarian-leaning blogs and all have said much the same thing in regards the convoy, so either there's an outbreak of unlibertarian disease going around, or you'll have to look again at the facts you're being presented with.

1. there's unlikely a free market in Gaza, given that much of the subsistence aid is donated from abroad anyway.

2. Hamas wants peace on the condition that all 12 million Palestinians have the vote in Israel immediately. what will they vote for do you think?

3. that's very much a matter of opinion.

4. I understand the Israelis make their own weapons.

5. Most people take Hamas at its word when they say they want to obliterate Israel (and Jews). Then the people of Gaza elected them.

6. Yes, the blockade is the consequence of electing Hamas.

7. maybe 5 out of 6 ships was full of peace activists. maybe. the sixth wasn't and the video evidence is there for all to see.
Second, why are people perpetuating the myth that "international waters" is some kind of magical fairyland where sweetness and light is decreed to reign? There's nothing illegal about boarding a ship that's running a blockade if it's suspected of carrying weapons.

8. they can get aid through by normal channels. the convoy was about breaking the blockade.

I'm all for equality, justice, and a two-state solution.

6/05/2010 01:23:00 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


I'm all for equality, justice, and a two-state solution.


tr: I'm all for wiping out Israel and the Jews.


Most of the so-called "problems" in the middle-east are caused purely by the restraints placed on Israel by the USA.

In a situation that we have now, when advanced semi-Western Islamic powers (notably Turkey) are granting military escorts to ships carrying semtex, Katyushas, Grads, RPG-7s, ammunition etc to the terrorists in the West Bank.

In WW2 the allies offered no warning, no quarter and no hesitation in sinking any shipping delivering any supplies to the axis. If Israel had simply sunk the flotilla there would be no less outrage amoungst the leftist neo-stalists of the "Peace Movement" (aka voluntary surrender to Islam movement).
but the effect on terrorists and their material supporters would have been great. One can only hope that prudent naval discipline will now be applied to terrorist resupply columns.

Similarly, the only effective means of stopping Iran's nuclear programme is a strategic countervalue strike against the supporting economy. But again Israel is restrained by the US.
Jordan and Syrian present at least the same problems -
potentially so does Pakistan and Turkey. Only Israel or the
US have the means to resolve these issues, and only Israel the motivation.

The sooner Israel resolves the blockade, the Iran problem, and indeed the strategic balance of power in the region, the sooner we will see a final solution to the Palestinian problem.

6/05/2010 08:15:00 am  
Blogger Adz said...

Tim Johnston,

1. Gaza was able to create its own economy not just through aid, but through the fishing, agricultural industry and others which brought in millions of dollars per year. Nevertheless, the aid that did come in helped create a much better economy. Now the economy has been collapsed due to the blockade which only empowers Hamas because at the end of the day, Palestinians are left with no jobs and no means of succeeding economically whilst their families' are suffering.. This only brings in more recruits for Hamas as fighters..

If Israel were to open the blockade, cease other activities and engage in genuine peace talks there would be no need for more people to join Hamas.

2. No, that wasn't a condition of Hamas', the Arab league and Hamas realize that it would be impractical. They've both agreed on the Arab Peace Initiative that states:

"To be sure, the initiative calls for achieving a just solution of the problem in accordance with UNGA Resolution 194, but it points out that the implementation of that resolution has to be agreed. The key point here is that Arabs understand well that the implementation has to be both fair and realistic, and certainly agreed upon. In other words, there is no possibility of a solution that will lead to the changing of the character of the Jewish state."
http://www.jordanembassyus.org/arab_initiative.htm

3. What is an opinion? That Hamas has adhered to ceasefires or that a blockade is an act of war? It's not a matter of opinion at all, the UN even acknowledges Israel broke the ceasefire which caused the '08 massacre.

4. The Israelis make a very limited amount of their own weapons. The condition of US military aid is that the money is spent buying weapons made in the US. The F-16s, Apache Helicopters, Hellfire Missiles etc are all made in the US.

5. Of course Hamas states that it's intended goal is to free all Palestinian land, it's international politics. They're aware that this is unlikely and have agreed to two state solution as described by the Arab Peace Initiative. http://www.jordanembassyus.org/arab_initiative.htm

6. So we agree, the blockade was for electing Hamas, even though Hamas had declared the willingness to negotiate for peace. It's such hypocrisy, prior to the elections of Hamas the US government were so happy, claiming that the Palestinians would get their democratic vote and it'd be a great day for democracy in the Middle East, so the Palestinians voted in the government that was the least corrupt which was Hamas and as soon as they did, the Americans and Israelis put a blockade on the Palestinian people to punish them for their choice.. That's no way to create change, it's much simpler to make peace, but the Israeli government doesn't want peace, instead they only want to take over more land.

7. Israel didn't board the flotilla to check if there were weapons, they consistently warned the ships captains through radio that if they did not turn from their course away from Gaza and Israel they'd be met with deadly force.

8. No, they can't get aid through the normal channels, Israel hasn't allowed most of those types of goods like concrete and other building materials in addition to school books etc into the Gaza strip even though it's been sent before.

Look at a partial list of goods banned by the Israelis:
Prohibited Items*
http://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/HiddenMessages/ItemsGazaStrip060510.pdf

Now how much of that is going to be used for terrorism? Musical instruments for terrorist marching bands? Toys for terrorist children?

6/05/2010 11:14:00 am  
Anonymous Mastroleo said...

Adonis, when you quote your supposedly facts, then show us those links, otherwise you're just spouting nonsense here?

Just a question. Didn't Arafat refuse the offer that Israeli Prime Minister at the time, Ehud Barak put forward to him?

So, who does not want peace here?

Here is a suggestion to you. You're only 25 and you don't know shit. You need to read more than a 100 books before you can even come here to lecture us. We have read almost all the arguments & counterarguments about the Israeli vs Palestinian conflict over the years, so most readers here know much deeper than you. I suggest you do that first, i.e., read, read, read, before making an informed comment.

6/05/2010 01:20:00 pm  
Blogger Adz said...

Mastroleo,

I'm not spouting nonsense.
Hamas is prepared to accept the Arab peace initiative:
An Interview with Khaled Meshaal in 08-
Part 1
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=video&cd=1&ved=0CDEQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DO8TTjb54GzM&ei=vrQJTOC9LcyIkAWS1dHDDQ&usg=AFQjCNFTxuSH6HgQYsm-ydO3mlGd6EXRug&sig2=p5yayZmLNbP2HXFEgXxkEg

Part 2
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=video&cd=2&ved=0CDYQtwIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DnLOFtqK1jPI&ei=vrQJTOC9LcyIkAWS1dHDDQ&usg=AFQjCNFcqal0uDh7QyIUZxap0mA0pu6_AQ&sig2=1b6gA41kr-jXl0Bodd_nvQ


Also, Arafat refused an offer for a 'state' where the Palestinians wouldn't have control of their own airspace, water, borders etc and would therefore have no state. Or didn't your books tell you that? Perhaps it's you who needs to go back and read a bit more than your pro Israel books..

It's the Israelis who don't want peace.

The Palestinians won't accept a 'peace' agreement that takes away their dignity and rights. Justice is necessary for peace to take place.

You are correct, I AM 25 but that doesn't mean I don't know anything, I know a lot more than you think so how about you drop the attitude, you're the one behaving like a child.

6/05/2010 02:58:00 pm  

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