You can't have it both ways. Either God exists and has created and killed more people than Satan (whom He created as well), or God doesn't exist and hasn't killed anyone.
I think Elijah was referring to the fact that this is obviously a joke, and not really to be taken seriously. It's a bit like the concept of god in that respect actually.
Right. So I take it that libs are just kidding around, not to be taken seriously either.
I know you're just having fun, poking religion in the eye, but most of these "silly" critiques are ill-informed attacks on strawmen with no basis in the actual theology of the mainstream church.
Lucia, accepting this whole thread as rational argument, if you are perfect and create beings by your own design, then kill them off, how loving does it make you?
Either: - You are not perfect and there was a flaw in the design that they'd misbehave; or - You are perfect and built the flaw in the design so they'd "misbehave" for your curiosity, amusement, etc.
The former rather weakens the omnipotent creator concept, the latter is at best a whim worshipper at worst a sadist. Given those killed happen to include children, you'd really have to start thinking the latter.
I think PC is wearing his Objectivist hat today with this post Ropata....Libs have no problem with free people beliving what they like.Trouble is some of these belivers want to force others to belive as they do and try to get the State to make it happen.
God...as revealed in the Binle was a mass murdering,sexual obsessed tryant...wheres the appeal to a moral human being of worshipping such a monster?
So... before you can get your deity-jollies from murdering millions you have to create the millions in the first place huh LM?
We rightly regard the Crafers as scum for what they did to the live stock which they bred....how much worse is a God that does the same with human beings?
I support Lucia Maria's comment here. God does exist if only in the sense of a literary character so it is reasonable to present these sorts of arguments. Calling her "silly" or a "girl" would appear to contravene the first rule of commenting here which is, Respond with a polite and intelligent comment. I don't see how this sort of response encourages commenting and wonder PC why you don't call Lineberry out on it as this is by no means the first time he has done this sort of thing. If Lucia could be encouraged to continue we could have a lot of interesting discussions about how Christians can accomodate what appears to be a tendancy to mass murder and love in the same individual.
What's interesting is that the general ratio of people killed by God : Satan - is the same ratio of those killed by Socialist governments : Libertarian governments!
James, you apply your limited understanding to the situation, to assume God is not acting in the ultimate best interests of his creation.
All you are theorising on is what would James do if James had God-like powers.
If you are going to make an argument God exists then you have to admit he created everything. You might also have to allow for the doctrine of free will, and people were able to chose between good and evil. You then have to accept their are consequences to all those actions. And if God exists, and their is an afterlife, then what happens to your soul over eternity may be more important than how and when you die (and we all die).
Finally, on an issue of property rights, which seems to be your God, you might want to agree or disagree with your fellow Libertarian about snacky-dog.
Perhaps the point here is so obvious that all of you overlooked it.
Whether or not you believe that the Bible is the Word of God, at any rate it's the book whose author(s) decided that this is the best way to sell the goodness of their God. And the stories they decided to tell about him to demonstrate that "goodness" can be tallied up as reported.
Don't you find that strange?
We're told by thee author(s) that Satan is evil and God is good, yet in the very book written to demonstrate that thesis the latter is shown to be a murderer several orders of magnitude more nasty than the former.
They only include God versus Satan ‘listed’ killings (per the pages of The Loving Gods manifesto a.k.a ‘The Little Black Book’)
They do not include the total sum of all humanity (except an old drunkard and his family) drowned mercilessly, when God saw fit to wipe his own slate clean.
As they Corporal Jones use to say on Dads Army “they don’t like it up em!”.
Okay, So we are in favour of a modern israel nuking Iran in self defense (to protect the chosen land as per Gods command), but not an ancient israel slaughtering the canaanites in self defense (as per the same reasoning)?
There seems a lack of acceptance that God is used by these religious chappies in an appalling way.
Supernatural witchcraft is used to instil fear into the hearts and minds of young children who then grow up with these irrational ideas...(to pass onto their own children and so on)
I consider that sort of nonsense to be wrong, to be an appalling way to control humans.
"but do you take responsibility for the faulty carpenter? Think about it. Any leak in your building makes you a crap architect, regardless of whether the builder followed your plans. A God big enough to create is a God big enough to give free will. And tolerate architects.:-)"
Eh? PC, you been creating carpenters in your own image again?
Supernatural witchcraft is used to instil fear into the hearts and minds of young children who then grow up with these irrational ideas...(to pass onto their own children and so on).
Well, yes, you'd know all about that owuldn't you Elijah, being a Labour/Greenie card carrying global warmist!
You've gotta laugh at how bad the believers tie themselves up in knots attempting to evade the point. Desparation? Perhaps they have so much invested in the beliefs that they can't ever relax and let reality intrude.
Mr Tits, I have been called many things (many of them hilarious) but being described as a Labour/Greenie card carrying warmist must be number 1! hahahahaha!!
(off to read my first edition copy of 'Capital' by Marx)
If you're going to write a book selling your favourite big guy in the sky, why would you write stories that show he's such a murderous bastard, and your bad guy isn't.
If you are a Christian and you ‘believe’ in the teachings of it’s sole manifesto then by rights you agree that it’s fine for your nominated God to destroy in a whim or hissy-fit 99.9999999% of all mankind and for good-measure all the other creatures ‘great & small’ we share the planet with.
No theologian has ever been able to explain to me why God would rid himself of soulless creatures like a stick-insect along with the sinful humans – collateral damage perhaps?
Simply because he can and it’s his right to terminate-life?
How does a mass flood dispose of the creatures living in the oceans anyway?
Why did the pre-Noah Kiwi’s do for example that they deserved to get caught-up in Gods petulance over his top creations?
Or do Kiwi’s and other animals have free-will as well?
Then there is the little matter of 950 year-old Noah who was a great man ‘on the piss’ and hardly the bastion of sinless-ness.
His families incestuous off-spring went on to re-create the same problems with sin God had tried to cure when he killed everyone in the first place = the mass drowning was always going to be an exercise in futility.
The Christian God is not a nice chap – end of story.
If you feel the need to believe in a God at least pick a decent loving one.
Gotta go for now.
Paul.
PS: 950 year old humans! Noah and his Arc with all the animals. Any 6 year- old can see through this sort of fantasy.
Yes, he is so murderous, the book tells of how He let his own Son be murdered by us, ie. his creation. Go figure.
It also tells of how sin entered through the Fall of man (note, NOT the Fall of God ) and how free will, choice and sacrifice are important.
If you want to be taken seriously, at least show some knowledge and understanding of the Book of which you speak. Instead you choose to pick bits and pieces which agree with pre-conceived ideas which arrive fully formed in your head.
Elijah: thank you, you have confirmed your immaturity and inability to be taken seriously.
Paul: you really must stop projecting your own shortcomings onto this God of your imagination.
I was going to let this slide, as religious debates never go anywhere, but really:
Yes, he is so murderous, the book tells of how He let his own Son be murdered by us, ie. his creation.
This magic son, who is apparently himself? Man, what a sacrifice. Shag a virgin, leaving no trace, she pops a sprog which you have nowt to do with, then you plan all along to have him killed in a brutal fashion to prove some silly point which was entirely arbitrary in the first place? Yeah, whatta guy.
Put more amusingly:
"The belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
You write: "The point was replied to on several counts."
Let's be clear about it. The replies were evasions and PC's point was not directly or honestly addressed.
It is amusing to watch you tie yourselves up in knots of contradictions, rationalisations, topic substitutions, red herrings, mental short circuits and the like- anything to evade facing the unpleasant problems inherent in your charmless (and gormless) belief. For crying out loud man, relax and let reality intrude. It's easier in the long run. Honest as well.
But no. Honesty would be too easy, so you write, "You keep asserting if you were God, you would design things differently, and therefore, God cannot exist."
No. I didn't assert that at all. Stop being a liar.
And then, "I'm still unclear on why you think you could do a better job."
What nonsense. I have not held or presented such a notion. Stop telling lies Zen. You are not good at it. You should stop now.
BTW, in your final paragraph, are you trying to say that all people are the property of a supernatural spirit monster ghost thing or what? Are all people merely the property of some entity? Seriously, is that what you are trying to show? Or what?
I repeat, if you are inclined to believe in invisible entities called Gods then at least pick a ‘nice’ one.
Say one that avoids the traits of infanticide and psychopathic megalomania. That’s to say the bloke you call God, the one the writers of The Bible never bothered to get round to naming.
I always tell people the only God that gets my respect is The Egyptian Cat Goddess ‘Bast’ and that’s only because she goes about topless (34B at my best guess)
So there are some great Gods to choose from if you look hard.
Still waiting to hear why God saw it necessary to exterminate (excepting one pair) all the soulless animals and re-create the same fallible humans via the 950 year old Noah and his blood relatives?
Have a good one and stick to the subject guys – The Christian Gods killing spree.
Paul.
PS: Mr Tips concerning my so-called short-comings "I've never had any complaints".
The complaint against God was addressed directly in my first comment. You didn't read the link did you?
There is a certain amount of interpretation to be applied to the Scripture before shooting your mouth off. Reading some parts as a 100% literal, historical account is exactly what the apocalyptic fundies do.
Also, there is a lot of emphasis on goodness, mercy, and love in the Bible. I don't see how viewing the world through a demonic lens is helpful to anybody.
33 comments:
Who created more people?
I think you'll find God wins there as well.
Oh now come on - don't be a silly girl.
Forgive me if I may inject some sanity into the mockery and sexist remarks, but this question is considered seriously here.
Elijah,
You can't have it both ways. Either God exists and has created and killed more people than Satan (whom He created as well), or God doesn't exist and hasn't killed anyone.
I think Elijah was referring to the fact that this is obviously a joke, and not really to be taken seriously. It's a bit like the concept of god in that respect actually.
Right. So I take it that libs are just kidding around, not to be taken seriously either.
I know you're just having fun, poking religion in the eye, but most of these "silly" critiques are ill-informed attacks on strawmen with no basis in the actual theology of the mainstream church.
Oh now come on - don't be a silly girl.
It was an excellent response, given the opening post. Indeed, your "response" and David's lame excuse about the "joke".
Here's a great quote from a Libertarian:
"Snacky dog [his dog] is property. If I want to take Snacky's head and smash it against a brick wall it's my right to do it! It's my right to do it.
Libertarians respect property rights.
So the idea of God as a supernatural being of infinite power, omniscience, and all good, can't be correct.
LGM
Lucia, accepting this whole thread as rational argument, if you are perfect and create beings by your own design, then kill them off, how loving does it make you?
Either:
- You are not perfect and there was a flaw in the design that they'd misbehave; or
- You are perfect and built the flaw in the design so they'd "misbehave" for your curiosity, amusement, etc.
The former rather weakens the omnipotent creator concept, the latter is at best a whim worshipper at worst a sadist. Given those killed happen to include children, you'd really have to start thinking the latter.
I think PC is wearing his Objectivist hat today with this post Ropata....Libs have no problem with free people beliving what they like.Trouble is some of these belivers want to force others to belive as they do and try to get the State to make it happen.
God...as revealed in the Binle was a mass murdering,sexual obsessed tryant...wheres the appeal to a moral human being of worshipping such a monster?
Lucia Maria said...
Who created more people?
I think you'll find God wins there as well."
So... before you can get your deity-jollies from murdering millions you have to create the millions in the first place huh LM?
We rightly regard the Crafers as scum for what they did to the live stock which they bred....how much worse is a God that does the same with human beings?
I support Lucia Maria's comment here. God does exist if only in the sense of a literary character so it is reasonable to present these sorts of arguments. Calling her "silly" or a "girl" would appear to contravene the first rule of commenting here which is, Respond with a polite and intelligent comment. I don't see how this sort of response encourages commenting and wonder PC why you don't call Lineberry out on it as this is by no means the first time he has done this sort of thing.
If Lucia could be encouraged to continue we could have a lot of interesting discussions about how Christians can accomodate what appears to be a tendancy to mass murder and love in the same individual.
Heh.
What's interesting is that the general ratio of people killed by God : Satan - is the same ratio of those killed by Socialist governments : Libertarian governments!
James, you apply your limited understanding to the situation, to assume God is not acting in the ultimate best interests of his creation.
All you are theorising on is what would James do if James had God-like powers.
If you are going to make an argument God exists then you have to admit he created everything. You might also have to allow for the doctrine of free will, and people were able to chose between good and evil. You then have to accept their are consequences to all those actions. And if
God exists, and their is an afterlife, then what happens to your soul over eternity may be more important than how and when you die (and we all die).
Finally, on an issue of property rights, which seems to be your God, you might want to agree or disagree with your fellow Libertarian about snacky-dog.
Perhaps the point here is so obvious that all of you overlooked it.
Whether or not you believe that the Bible is the Word of God, at any rate it's the book whose author(s) decided that this is the best way to sell the goodness of their God. And the stories they decided to tell about him to demonstrate that "goodness" can be tallied up as reported.
Don't you find that strange?
We're told by thee author(s) that Satan is evil and God is good, yet in the very book written to demonstrate that thesis the latter is shown to be a murderer several orders of magnitude more nasty than the former.
What do you think that tells us?
I think a relevant analogy and question would be:
how many buildings have you actually built PC? You may have designed them perhaps, but do you take responsibility for the faulty carpenter?
Think about it. Any leak in your building makes you a crap architect, regardless of whether the builder followed your plans.
A God big enough to create is a God
big enough to give free will. And tolerate architects.:-)
Hey PC, these figures are seriously flawed mate.
They only include God versus Satan ‘listed’ killings (per the pages of The Loving Gods manifesto a.k.a ‘The Little Black Book’)
They do not include the total sum of all humanity (except an old drunkard and his family) drowned mercilessly, when God saw fit to wipe his own slate clean.
As they Corporal Jones use to say on Dads Army “they don’t like it up em!”.
Lovin’ it.
Paul.
You'd think with all these hints from God, people would try not to act like complete wankers.
Oh that's right, you don't believe in God.
Okay, So we are in favour of a modern israel nuking Iran in self defense (to protect the chosen land as per Gods command), but not an ancient israel slaughtering the canaanites in self defense (as per the same reasoning)?
Have I got the gist of it?
There seems a lack of acceptance that God is used by these religious chappies in an appalling way.
Supernatural witchcraft is used to instil fear into the hearts and minds of young children who then grow up with these irrational ideas...(to pass onto their own children and so on)
I consider that sort of nonsense to be wrong, to be an appalling way to control humans.
"but do you take responsibility for the faulty carpenter?
Think about it. Any leak in your building makes you a crap architect, regardless of whether the builder followed your plans.
A God big enough to create is a God
big enough to give free will. And tolerate architects.:-)"
Eh? PC, you been creating carpenters in your own image again?
Supernatural witchcraft is used to instil fear into the hearts and minds of young children who then grow up with these irrational ideas...(to pass onto their own children and so on).
Well, yes, you'd know all about that owuldn't you Elijah, being a Labour/Greenie card carrying global warmist!
PC
You've gotta laugh at how bad the believers tie themselves up in knots attempting to evade the point. Desparation? Perhaps they have so much invested in the beliefs that they can't ever relax and let reality intrude.
LGM
Mr Tits, I have been called many things (many of them hilarious) but being described as a Labour/Greenie card carrying warmist must be number 1! hahahahaha!!
(off to read my first edition copy of 'Capital' by Marx)
You've gotta laugh at how bad the believers tie themselves up in knots attempting to evade the point.
The point was replied to on several counts. You may need to read carefully to find them, given the plank in your eye.
You keep asserting if you were God, you would design things differently, and therefore, God cannot exist.
I'm still unclear on why you think you could do a better job.
As a Libertarian said:
Snacky dog [his dog] is property. If I want to take Snacky's head and smash it against a brick wall it's my right to do it! It's my right to do it.
Well, no you haven't.
If you're going to write a book selling your favourite big guy in the sky, why would you write stories that show he's such a murderous bastard, and your bad guy isn't.
I'm lovin' this!
If you are a Christian and you ‘believe’ in the teachings of it’s sole manifesto then by rights you agree that it’s fine for your nominated God to destroy in a whim or hissy-fit 99.9999999% of all mankind and for good-measure all the other creatures ‘great & small’ we share the planet with.
No theologian has ever been able to explain to me why God would rid himself of soulless creatures like a stick-insect along with the sinful humans – collateral damage perhaps?
Simply because he can and it’s his right to terminate-life?
How does a mass flood dispose of the creatures living in the oceans anyway?
Why did the pre-Noah Kiwi’s do for example that they deserved to get caught-up in Gods petulance over his top creations?
Or do Kiwi’s and other animals have free-will as well?
Then there is the little matter of 950 year-old Noah who was a great man ‘on the piss’ and hardly the bastion of sinless-ness.
His families incestuous off-spring went on to re-create the same problems with sin God had tried to cure when he killed everyone in the first place = the mass drowning was always going to be an exercise in futility.
The Christian God is not a nice chap – end of story.
If you feel the need to believe in a God at least pick a decent loving one.
Gotta go for now.
Paul.
PS: 950 year old humans! Noah and his Arc with all the animals. Any 6 year- old can see through this sort of fantasy.
NotPC
Yes, he is so murderous, the book tells of how He let his own Son be murdered by us, ie. his creation.
Go figure.
It also tells of how sin entered through the Fall of man (note, NOT the Fall of God ) and how free will, choice and sacrifice are important.
If you want to be taken seriously, at least show some knowledge and understanding of the Book of which you speak. Instead you choose to pick bits and pieces which agree with pre-conceived ideas which arrive fully formed in your head.
Elijah: thank you, you have confirmed your immaturity and inability to be taken seriously.
Paul: you really must stop projecting your own shortcomings onto this God of your imagination.
I was going to let this slide, as religious debates never go anywhere, but really:
Yes, he is so murderous, the book tells of how He let his own Son be murdered by us, ie. his creation.
This magic son, who is apparently himself? Man, what a sacrifice. Shag a virgin, leaving no trace, she pops a sprog which you have nowt to do with, then you plan all along to have him killed in a brutal fashion to prove some silly point which was entirely arbitrary in the first place? Yeah, whatta guy.
Put more amusingly:
"The belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
Yeah, Christianity makes perfect sense."
Zen
You write: "The point was replied to on several counts."
Let's be clear about it. The replies were evasions and PC's point was not directly or honestly addressed.
It is amusing to watch you tie yourselves up in knots of contradictions, rationalisations, topic substitutions, red herrings, mental short circuits and the like- anything to evade facing the unpleasant problems inherent in your charmless (and gormless) belief. For crying out loud man, relax and let reality intrude. It's easier in the long run. Honest as well.
But no. Honesty would be too easy, so you write, "You keep asserting if you were God, you would design things differently, and therefore, God cannot exist."
No. I didn't assert that at all. Stop being a liar.
And then, "I'm still unclear on why you think you could do a better job."
What nonsense. I have not held or presented such a notion. Stop telling lies Zen. You are not good at it. You should stop now.
BTW, in your final paragraph, are you trying to say that all people are the property of a supernatural spirit monster ghost thing or what? Are all people merely the property of some entity? Seriously, is that what you are trying to show? Or what?
LGM
I repeat, if you are inclined to believe in invisible entities called Gods then at least pick a ‘nice’ one.
Say one that avoids the traits of infanticide and psychopathic megalomania. That’s to say the bloke you call God, the one the writers of The Bible never bothered to get round to naming.
I always tell people the only God that gets my respect is The Egyptian Cat Goddess ‘Bast’ and that’s only because she goes about topless (34B at my best guess)
So there are some great Gods to choose from if you look hard.
Still waiting to hear why God saw it necessary to exterminate (excepting one pair) all the soulless animals and re-create the same fallible humans via the 950 year old Noah and his blood relatives?
Have a good one and stick to the subject guys – The Christian Gods killing spree.
Paul.
PS: Mr Tips concerning my so-called short-comings "I've never had any complaints".
The complaint against God was addressed directly in my first comment. You didn't read the link did you?
There is a certain amount of interpretation to be applied to the Scripture before shooting your mouth off. Reading some parts as a 100% literal, historical account is exactly what the apocalyptic fundies do.
Also, there is a lot of emphasis on goodness, mercy, and love in the Bible. I don't see how viewing the world through a demonic lens is helpful to anybody.
"...a certain amount of interpretation..."
A.k.a wriggling.
A.k.a rationalising.
A.k.a Tieing your thinking up in knots.
Give it up man. Let reality in!
LGM
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