tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post5952537630040258147..comments2024-03-29T10:51:27.752+13:00Comments on Not PC: NOT PJ: Freedom Becomes PatchyPeter Cresswellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-25773247614796703552009-05-09T11:05:00.000+12:002009-05-09T11:05:00.000+12:00I lived in Wanganui for a year or so and anyone wh...I lived in Wanganui for a year or so and anyone who has not experienced the delights of living in that wonderful city may be under a grave misapprehension about the place.<br /><br />Allow me to clarify things; I never once saw a gang member, gang patch, felt intimidated (although I am not really the sort of chap to be intimidated by anyone! ha ha!), or witnessed any of these other problems which Laws and Borrows claim afflict the delightful River City.<br /><br />Furthermore I never once heard anyone mention gangs, gang patches, intimidation or other problems to me; and it is curious these 'problems' seem to have emerged when Wanganui elected Laws as Mayor and Borrows as MP<br /><br />In short - this is an imaginary problem which the conservative Tories seek to convince their gullible supporters exists and require[s] solving.<br /><br />The only 'gangsters' in Wanganui I ever saw or met were Ken Mair and that Turia female who both lived close by my house and our paths would occasionally cross at the local dairy when I was buying a newspaper or cigarettes.Elijah Lineberrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-35092931201299416792009-05-08T11:25:00.000+12:002009-05-08T11:25:00.000+12:00Paul
Nice to have you in the discussion and thank...Paul<br /><br />Nice to have you in the discussion and thanks for your well put and polite input.<br /><br />Re, the Maori Party, it is hard to say. One would like to think they objected based on the freedom of expression issues discussed here but most likely it was the whole 'you are just picking on us brown fullahs' attitude once again. Yes, the gangs are a blight on Maoridom - you know that as do I - but when people have an attitude of 'raced based - us vs them' they tend to filter everything through that lens.Sean Fitzpatricknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-2697407078366634462009-05-08T11:11:00.000+12:002009-05-08T11:11:00.000+12:00I think most New Zealanders are sick of the intimi...I think most New Zealanders are sick of the intimidation and major role gangs play in crime.<br /><br />They are blight on Maoridom in particular, so what struck me as being more ironic than the split in the ACT vote, was The Maori Party was against the legislation?<br /><br />From my experience ACT has a fair split of Liberals and Conservatives in its ranks, and this vote merely reflects its membership. It’s no big deal. <br /><br />Gangs plague the Maori community more than any other, and anything to curb their growth and glamour, should surely have been supported? <br /><br />The Police see this as a positive piece of law, so we must all take this at face value and wait to see how it works.<br /><br />The sky is not falling.<br /><br />I can still wear my 60’s psychedelic shirts and not be arrested. <br /><br />One read of my blog-site, you’ll see I generally agree with the libertarian philosophy – but on this one I’m with Laws and I’m prepared to wait and see. <br /><br />Nice chatting.<br /><br />Paul.Canterbury Atheistshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09900223059660267657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-20782910568496863212009-05-08T08:26:00.000+12:002009-05-08T08:26:00.000+12:00"Freedom isn't destroyed in one fell swoop. We wil..."Freedom isn't destroyed in one fell swoop. We will never be able to look back on history and say that one act of Parliament or one person started us on the path to totalitarianism."<br />Quite.KGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01940428991630766942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-88208717486295229702009-05-07T23:17:00.000+12:002009-05-07T23:17:00.000+12:00Yes, it is a stupid law, yes it won't do nothing, ...<I>Yes, it is a stupid law, yes it won't do nothing, but it's not the end of the world</I><BR>Berend, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Freedom isn't destroyed in one fell swoop. We will never be able to look back on history and say that one act of Parliament or one person started us on the path to totalitarianism.<br /><br />What we can do is hold up every single little thing that chips away at our freedoms and say: This Is Wrong. This Is Not OK.<br /><br />We have a voice, for now, and we will protest.<br /><br />What will you do?Luke Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09929408708481681826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-37553087013791475582009-05-07T22:19:00.000+12:002009-05-07T22:19:00.000+12:00Berend: Correction, it takes freedom away from the...Berend: Correction, it takes freedom away from the people of a city in New Zealand to prove a point.<br /><br />Nice. Instead of aiming for high standards, ACT's "acceptable" because despite it being stupid and pointless, the leader helped pass the law anyway.<br /><br />How hard was it to get this right? How hard was it to argue that way?<br /><br />If Rodney can't defend this, what hope that he can do anything to shrink local government when he just helped give new powers to one council.Libertyscotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12741049550997300680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-41359656664884594182009-05-07T21:02:00.000+12:002009-05-07T21:02:00.000+12:00@Berend: Am I to assume that you only oppose the e...@Berend: Am I to assume that you only oppose the end of freedom in NZ but that all the steps along the way are OK?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-42274438722731477642009-05-07T20:10:00.000+12:002009-05-07T20:10:00.000+12:00Look guys, a law about gang badges isn't the end o...Look guys, a law about gang badges isn't the end of freedom in NZ.<br /><br />And claiming that legalising drugs would mean that criminals suddenly become taxpayers goes a long way towards explaining why the Libz are not gaining any traction.<br /><br />Yes, it is a stupid law, yes it won't do nothing, but it's not the end of the world, and it gives freedom to a single city in NZ to prove that point.Berend de Boerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11433622686361556089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-17986428277460234762009-05-07T19:59:00.000+12:002009-05-07T19:59:00.000+12:00Excellent post, especially: "the Prohibition of Br...Excellent post, especially: <I>"the Prohibition of Breaking Stuff (and Hurting People) Act"</I>. So true.<br /><br />I don't know whether "liberal" and "conservative" would be good labels for the two wings of ACT if this issue is anything to go by however. I'd consider myself a conservative, but I'm with Douglas and Roy on this one. The conservative position is often very close to the classical liberal one.<br /><br />Better labels may be "liberal" and "authoritarian" in my mind. I don't see how any true conservative would support this nonsense, but an authoritarian would.Mr Dennishttp://sjdennis.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-84015547607368316262009-05-07T19:05:00.000+12:002009-05-07T19:05:00.000+12:00"What do you suggest, give up and strap on the jac...<I>"What do you suggest, give up and strap on the jackboots?"</I>. What contortions did you have to twist your mind into to come up with that ridiculous comment?twrhttp://sendbackto.usnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-59298431699831520642009-05-07T18:51:00.000+12:002009-05-07T18:51:00.000+12:00Are you suggesting the voting public of NZ would s...Are you suggesting the voting public of NZ would support a civil war to obtain greater freedoms and smaller government?twrhttp://sendbackto.usnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-55423920274007459872009-05-07T18:50:00.000+12:002009-05-07T18:50:00.000+12:00Sounds like an uphill battle for those in favour o...<I>Sounds like an uphill battle for those in favour of basic freedoms.</I>People elected Hitler, too. It's always been an uphill battle for those in favour of basic freedoms. What do you suggest, give up and strap on the jackboots?Gregnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-5145430768117494042009-05-07T18:48:00.000+12:002009-05-07T18:48:00.000+12:00From a policy point of view, come up with a way of...<I>From a policy point of view, come up with a way of progressively moving towards the ideal situation rather than insisting that it all gets done in one fell swoop</I>If you'd lived in the US in the 1800s, I wonder if you would have suggested "progressively moving towards the ideal situation" of ending slavery, rather than ending it immediately? (Assuming you weren't supporting it)<br /><br />"Gradualism in theory is perpetuity in practice."Gregnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-59165771204438175962009-05-07T18:39:00.000+12:002009-05-07T18:39:00.000+12:00Stuff poll says 9.1% say the ban is a breach of fu...Stuff poll says 9.1% say the ban is a breach of fundamental freedoms, while the rest have voted in favour of it or something stronger. <br /><br />Sounds like an uphill battle for those in favour of basic freedoms.twrhttp://sendbackto.usnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-65431905887646812682009-05-07T17:33:00.000+12:002009-05-07T17:33:00.000+12:00Hi Paul
If it was true that "90% of NZers agree w...Hi Paul<br /><br />If it was true that "90% of NZers agree with this new law" -- and you may well be right re their being the majority, if not quite that percentage -- then all that clearly shows is that most New Zealanders have no understanding of what freedom is or means.<br /><br />Makes Anzac Day commemoration pretty hollow, don't you think?Susnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-78560619995387123652009-05-07T17:26:00.000+12:002009-05-07T17:26:00.000+12:00Hi Diane:
You mention what would Libz attitude be...Hi Diane:<br /><br />You mention what would Libz attitude be twd the wearing of a swastika. Coincidentally, Leighton Smith posed exactly the same question to me this morning on Newstalk ZB after reading my (first) email critical of this insane law.<br /><br />FYI, my unread response is best summarised as follows:<br /><br />That people have the right to wear a swastika on their t-shirt. They can (and do) wear images of Che Guevara on t-shirts, so what's the difference. Both represent philosophies of totalitarianism and brute force. But my respect for freedom automatically allows for people doing (and wearing) things I may not like or agree with.<br /><br />However, not on *my* property, they don't! Anybody sporting a swastika or Che Guevara in my house would have their ass figuratively kicked well & truly into the middle of next week, preceded by one hell of a bollocking! :)<br /><br />In other words, when property is privately owned, it is the owners who decide what goes. So many issues are only issues as a result of land being in public ownership. (Think "boobs on bikes", for example).<br /><br />Does that help?Susnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-40188595289164484602009-05-07T16:29:00.000+12:002009-05-07T16:29:00.000+12:00eradicate gangs or criminalsLibertarians have neve...<I>eradicate gangs or criminals</I>Libertarians have never suggested eradicating gangs or criminals. <br /><br />We are just pointing out that giving people more freedom - AND having them take more responsibility for their actions - will improve the gang situation. Less crime, less drive-by shootings, less people in prison, better drug treatment, etc, etc.<br /><br />Stupid crap like banning patches does nothing but take away more of our few remaining freedoms.Luke Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09929408708481681826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-51327768380039160872009-05-07T16:09:00.000+12:002009-05-07T16:09:00.000+12:00Richard, I do kind of agree with
The welfare sta...Richard, I do kind of agree with <br /><br /><I>The welfare state that pushes youths toward the gang culture, the lenient sentencing of the courts and the huge profits available from trading in drugs all need addressing through deregulation and privatisation.</I>but it will do sweet fa to eradicate gangs or criminals. Gangs and criminals have existed throughout history under countless different forms of government, and they will continue to do so. There always has been, and always will be, people who prefer to take something rather than earn it, people who like to hurt others for whatever reason. If we have laws, there will always be people who choose to live a life that disobeys those laws, it's just human nature. I'd hate for anyone here to think that government (even less government) can change that, because they'd be dreaming.<br /><br />One thing I do disagree with is your comment that the welfare state pushes youths towards gangs. The welfare state is a dangerous pig of a thing, there's no doubt about that, but it doesn't push anyone into becoming a criminal - poor parenting does that to an extent, but it is ultimately the choice of the individual. That's where freedom of choice isn't always going to provide the answers we necessarily want - some people choose to be bad.Marcusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-62824514328034498462009-05-07T14:40:00.000+12:002009-05-07T14:40:00.000+12:00Bernard - certainly the govt should keep their nos...Bernard - certainly the govt should keep their nose out of groups of people minding their own business, but criminal gangs are another matter. The welfare state that pushes youths toward the gang culture, the lenient sentencing of the courts and the huge profits available from trading in drugs all need addressing through deregulation and privatisation.Richard McGrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11485082980018421590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-27701850990032418192009-05-07T14:32:00.000+12:002009-05-07T14:32:00.000+12:00Question is, how would adding a proper libertarian...Question is, how would adding a proper libertarian wing help, other than fracturing their party even further?<br /><br />It can't hurt.I mooted fortming a Liberal/libertarian caucus within ACT a few mouths back to other party members but I never followed up on the idea.As ACT is in Parliament..indeed in Government...it would be well worth "colonising 'it and steering it in the right direction rather than try to reinvent the wheel with Libz...Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-42593570575896053432009-05-07T14:28:00.000+12:002009-05-07T14:28:00.000+12:00@Luke H: The split vote from Act may mean that the...@Luke H: The split vote from Act may mean that they still have liberal and conservative wings.<br /><br />It may also mean, given the narrow vote, that a deal was done whereby Act supported the government in attacking freedom while still maintaining a liberal-branded fig leaf.<br /><br />If that's the case you can forget about Act as a force for good. They will sell your freedom cheaply as and when required.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-74149178823942324532009-05-07T14:00:00.000+12:002009-05-07T14:00:00.000+12:00This has a been a really informative thread - both...This has a been a really informative thread - both the original post and the replies. Thanks to all concerned.<br /><br />Sorry for the length of my comment here, but I have a bit to say about this.<br /><br />The whole idea of banning gang insignia is pointless... <br /><br />Who defines what is and isn't gang insignia (or what a gang is for that matter). What would happen if all the Mongrel Mob turned up wearing leather jackets with a red rose on the back? What would happen if the Ulysses MC turned up with their patches on? <br /><br />What happens if a whole heap of gang members go to downtown Wanganui all wearing the same coloured shirt, but it's not their normal gang colour?<br /><br />And since the ban doesn't/can't extend towards tattoos, what happens if they just all go downtown with no shirts on?<br /><br />Even if you ignore the trampling of individual rights, it really is knee-jerk reactionary bollocks of the highest order.<br /><br />We had a similar topic locally here in Whangarei last year, when there was a call to have gang insignia and colours banned from the CBD. I happened to be right in the central mall when the incident that sparked the outrage occurred. 4 young Black Power associates were hanging around, they were joking and having fun and were a bit loud I suppose. Some elderly people felt intimidated by them and a couple of shop owners felt that they were scaring off customers. I don't blame them in the slightest for feeling threatened because these were BIG lads, but at the end of the day, it was just four kids having a laugh. If it wasn't for one of them wearing a Black Power T-shirt, nobody would have even entertained the notion of gang members, yet the debate that followed made them sound like vicious criminals ready to stampede the women and rape the cattle. <br /><br />I actually know three of the four teens involved, having worked at their primary school; I went up and talked to them on that same day they were 'acting in a threatening manner'... one of them tried to hide his cigarette, embarrassed that I'd 'caught him' smoking, and all three still act in a respectful manner to me and my family. Probably because I do the same.Marcusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-80944052123364483702009-05-07T13:59:00.000+12:002009-05-07T13:59:00.000+12:00The fact that ACT were split on this bill demonstr...The fact that ACT were split on this bill demonstrates what observers have been saying for years: there is the classical liberal wing and the conservative wing of ACT. Hence we get these schizophrenic outcomes.<br /><br />Question is, how would adding a proper libertarian wing help, other than fracturing their party even further?Luke Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09929408708481681826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-55509835020596536922009-05-07T13:43:00.000+12:002009-05-07T13:43:00.000+12:00To add to Bernard (I almost forgot this one) re-es...To add to Bernard (I almost forgot this one) re-establish the common law right to self defense and the right to own the means to self defense so these bullies are denied their easy target rich environment they currently conduct their savagery in.Sean Fitzpatricknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-70625877677826894522009-05-07T13:42:00.000+12:002009-05-07T13:42:00.000+12:00For once I agree with critisism of ACT. However Th...For once I agree with critisism of ACT. However The Great Sir Roger, and Heather Roy both voted against. I'm disgusted with the other three though.Comrade MOThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17064433671840996528noreply@blogger.com