tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post6255624093957303521..comments2024-03-30T00:09:27.602+13:00Comments on Not PC: The #ChristmasMyths, #4: The Birthplace and Surroundings of the Little Baby JesusPeter Cresswellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-87989710341645207142015-12-22T15:32:50.527+13:002015-12-22T15:32:50.527+13:00@Ben: You seem to miss the point of that incorrect...@Ben: You seem to miss the point of that incorrect translation. <br /><br />The original Hebrew descriptions of all that the Messiah was supposed to do, according to the Prophets, all appeared in the Old Testament. So the New Testament writers created their stories to show their Messiah following the prophecies; but they they were writing in Greek ... and they also had all the other pagan stories from which to borrow, so ....Peter Cresswellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-76160732073045094032015-12-22T15:26:35.766+13:002015-12-22T15:26:35.766+13:00@John, you said, "So "Christmas" is...@John, you said, "So "Christmas" is neither an original nor essential part of the Christian gospel."<br /><br />Bingo!Peter Cresswellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-54414628745893301432015-12-22T15:10:52.077+13:002015-12-22T15:10:52.077+13:00You're missing my point PC. The New Testament ...You're missing my point PC. The New Testament gives no actual date for the birth of Christ and the selection of 25 December to celebrate it didn't come until much later. So "Christmas" is neither an original nor essential part of the Christian gospel. Given how much uncertainty and speculation mark the study of ancient mythology, i'm highly skeptical of your list, but even if all these figures were "born" on 25 December it's frankly neither here nor there.<br /><br />John SmithAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-206339482963648762015-12-22T13:12:43.035+13:002015-12-22T13:12:43.035+13:00I disagree about the desperation and believe you o...I disagree about the desperation and believe you overlook Paul's past which contrasts hugely with his missionary work. Selling something that will get you off side with everyone and killed yet makes no money along the way seems foolish to persist with to an unpleasant end. It was not a new mystery cult as it fitted in with the Jewish theology which included plenty of references to gentiles. Gentiles would have been familiar with many Jewish customs because they were spread throughout the Roman world and were both regimented and exclusive. As is usual most people just followed the crowd for the free stuff. Nothing has changed. <br /><br />3:16Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-18488445774126040442015-12-22T13:08:19.903+13:002015-12-22T13:08:19.903+13:00PC: the whole 'virgin birth' thing is due ...PC: the whole 'virgin birth' thing is due to the incorrect translation of the Hebrew word for 'young woman'.<br /><br />If you're going to be smug about the ignorance of Christians it would help to be less ignorant yourself.Bennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-62903669208621825282015-12-22T11:14:42.843+13:002015-12-22T11:14:42.843+13:00Well, of course, none of these beings were actuall...Well, of course, none of these beings were actually born at all -- so let's not forget we're in the realm of myth here, not fact.<br /><br />Still, it was said that the Persian-Roman god Mithras was born in a cave on DEC-25 to, of course, a virgin. <br /><br />This was awfully conveneient, because it wasn't just the time of the winter solstice (time for many earlier pagan festivities) but also the end of the week-long Roman Saturnalia, "... marked by unrestrained revelry and often licentiousness; an orgy." (Give me an old-time Saturnalia any year!)<br /><br />But he wasn't even the only god saidd to have been born on DEC-25:<br /><br />* Attis was a son of the virgin Nana. His birth was celebrated on DEC-25. He was sacrificed as an adult in order to bring salvation to mankind. He died about MAR-25, after being crucified on a tree, and descended for three days into the underworld. On Sunday, he arose, as the solar deity for the new season. His followers tied an image of Attis to a tree on "Black Friday," and carried him in a procession to the temple. ["Black Friday" has a very different meaning today.] His body was symbolically eaten by his followers in the form of bread. Worship of Attis began in Rome circa 200 BCE.<br /><br />* Dionysus is another saviour-god whose birth was observed on DEC-25. He was worshipped throughout much of the Middle East as well as in Greece. He had a center of worship in Jerusalem in the 1st century BCE. Some ancient coins were found in Gaza with Dionysus on one side and JHWH (Jehovah) on the other. In later years, his flesh and blood were symbolically eaten in the form of bread and wine.<br /><br />* Osiris of course, was also 'born' DEC-25: A saviour-god who had been worshipped as far back as Neolithic times. "He was called Lord of Lords, King of Kings, God of Gods...the Resurrection and the Life, the Good shepherd...the god who 'made men and women be born again'" Three wise men announced his birth too, and his followers ate cakes of wheat symbolising his body. Many sayings associated with Osiris were copied into the Bible with minimal alteration, including the Lord's Prayer, the Psalm of the Good Shepherd, and many of Jesus' alleged parables. <br /><br />Many others have often been said to have shared the same famous day, including Hercules, Chrishna, HOrus, Beddou, Tammus and Quetzalcoatl. <br /><br />So on the one hand we can see that if you're going to give your mystery cult a leg-up in the marketing stakes, then you're obviously going to give your boy at least the same standing as his predecessors.<br /><br />And on the other hand, it gives all of us a pretty fine menu of gods from which to worship on DEC-25, if we so choose.Peter Cresswellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-27897558149163386082015-12-22T11:00:10.075+13:002015-12-22T11:00:10.075+13:00You forget that Paul and those who followed him we...You forget that Paul and those who followed him were were desperately trying to sell this new 'mystery cult' to the Gentiles....Peter Cresswellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-48720827625927974672015-12-21T20:54:35.026+13:002015-12-21T20:54:35.026+13:00The born in a cave stuff is probably rubbish as it...The born in a cave stuff is probably rubbish as it would be culturally unacceptable to not take in Joseph and Mary so its likely they were sleeping in someone's house and overflowed into the stable which would commonly form a room on one end to keep the animals in a night. All perfectly normal at the time irrespective of whether some pagan did it earlier.<br /><br />The competitor for Christianity in the Roman world was Ceasar because the Jews in particular were looking for a political leader. Jesus was clear that he was talking about something on a higher plane than being an alternative to the political rulers of the time. Gentiles didn't get dragged into this argument because they were not involved in the Jewish squabbles.<br /><br />3:16<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-87968598787966842762015-12-21T20:41:09.939+13:002015-12-21T20:41:09.939+13:00Yeah but the 25th is ideal as the end of year holi...Yeah but the 25th is ideal as the end of year holidays start earlier, better then than a day or two off in the middle of June huh? SuzukiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-79045140090165069452015-12-21T18:02:31.535+13:002015-12-21T18:02:31.535+13:00Mithras was not born on 25 December. A solar festi...Mithras was not born on 25 December. A solar festival was celebrated on that day which has led scholars to speculate that a "Sun" god like Mithras (not at all the same thing as Son Of God BTW) may have been included in this. Quite apart from anything else, the Christian movement was established and spread well before 25 December became the date on which we celebrate Christmas (it's not even controversial in the church that Christ wasn't actually born on this date). So even if it was true that Mithraism directly influenced the church on this particular issue, it would still be irrelevant to the question of whether Christianity is true.<br /><br />John SmithAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com