tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post5890884258986494963..comments2024-03-18T17:17:00.423+13:00Comments on Not PC: “He was asking for it” [update 3]Peter Cresswellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-69479294000704025012009-07-12T18:47:11.803+12:002009-07-12T18:47:11.803+12:00as I have given examples of, there are cases of ex...as I have given examples of, there are cases of extreme provocation where I think that, it should give a verdict or manslaugher, not murder. Perhaps the law should be changed so that the provocer has to have commited a serious crime, that significantly harmed the killer their his close relatives. It shouldnt include provocations such as "he was mean to me" or "he was hitting on me"Comrade MOThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17064433671840996528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-63505011141855071062009-07-12T18:01:24.104+12:002009-07-12T18:01:24.104+12:00I think PC has enunciated the issue very well. But...I think PC has enunciated the issue very well. But, regardless of the specific defence Weatherston embarks on, he is entitled to an unfettered trial. To subordinate that entitlement would be despotic.<br /><br />I agree with Elijah, the Crown are nowhere near having proved a murderous intent.<br /><br />There will be no further comment from me until the jury rightfully delivers its free and unfettered verdict. I counsel others to follow my lead.Favershamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13337891607779217970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-51579288997653084302009-07-12T17:32:55.146+12:002009-07-12T17:32:55.146+12:00Other than allowing the 'story' to be told...Other than allowing the 'story' to be told a trial serves no purpose. Weatherston admits he killed Sophie. So I am confused when people say he deserves a fair trial. Why? What will be achieved by allowing his barrister to manipulate a jury, in the hope that he will be found guilty only of manslaughter. How is this fair on the victim and her family?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-21884097301679265162009-07-12T16:18:46.626+12:002009-07-12T16:18:46.626+12:00I'm arguing that this, the issue of provocatio...<i>I'm arguing that this, the issue of provocation, is not a matter that should, in future, even get to a jury -- I'm suggesting, along with the Law Commission, that the defence of provocation should be removed from the books altogether.</i><br /><br />Of course it should be removed - in the interests of zero tolerance for violence in our society as much as for anything else. <br /><br />And I suggest you won't get much support from the Libertarian Right for removing it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-15331920922897794252009-07-12T14:59:09.440+12:002009-07-12T14:59:09.440+12:00Just to clarify. The issue being canvassed here i...Just to clarify. The issue being canvassed here is not whether or not these two entities were guilty or innocent of manslaughter by reason of provocation.<br /><br />That is, as some have said, an issue for the jury to decide -- and in one of these cases they've already given their opinion.<br /><br />But that's not the question being raised in my post. I'm arguing that this, the issue of provocation, <i>is not a matter that should, in future, even get to a jury</i> -- I'm suggesting, along with the Law Commission, that the defence of provocation should be removed from the books altogether. <br /><br />That's the question at issue here.Peter Cresswellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-40916254371086833102009-07-12T14:42:47.323+12:002009-07-12T14:42:47.323+12:00Weatherston deserves the same treatment, he showed...Weatherston deserves the same treatment, he showed Sophie. PERIOD. As a member of "Clayton Weatherston is a Murderer. He committed murder, not manslaughter". Am tired and disgusted at how a FACULTY member of a UNIVERSITY, THINKS AND FEELS his actions was not Murder. He certainly didnt PREMEDITATE his actions to go to SOPHIES house ARMED with a knife to go and CUT her Sandwiches. I Wonder if anyone here would invite CLAYTON for dinner, telling him to bring " his own KNIFE"!.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-82490341087288885182009-07-12T13:16:24.901+12:002009-07-12T13:16:24.901+12:00This comment has been removed by the author.AngloAmerikanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02002362092073890146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-67261308944901020772009-07-12T12:26:43.808+12:002009-07-12T12:26:43.808+12:00This comment has been removed by the author.AngloAmerikanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02002362092073890146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-35056191477771574552009-07-12T09:24:39.536+12:002009-07-12T09:24:39.536+12:00Chuck Bird, your example is an example of the type...Chuck Bird, your example is an example of the type of extreme provocation that should count, and get a verdict of manslaughter. "she was mean to me" should not count as suffient provocation.Comrade MOThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17064433671840996528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-31064055297564004672009-07-12T01:32:56.476+12:002009-07-12T01:32:56.476+12:00Elijah:
And who is saying Weatherston is not enti...Elijah:<br /><br />And who is saying Weatherston is not entitled to a fair trial? What I'm hearing is that the defence he's running is a load of shit.<br /><br />Or is the "correct libertarian poisition" now that the powers that be should never be questioned, let alone criticised?Craig Ranapiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08923246310584658857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-19470895324712592432009-07-12T00:30:44.347+12:002009-07-12T00:30:44.347+12:00Ruth, I didn't say that this man is not entilt...Ruth, I didn't say that this man is not entilted to a fair trial. He is, even if he is revolting. Yes, Lineberry is correct in that it is up to a jury to decide the verdict, not a facebook group or an angry mob on the street. I, myself, fail to see how it can be classed as manslaughter, but that is my 2c worth, is all. I see that the media are having a field day over this, though I have other things to concern myself with, so I am not following it to any great degree.Michnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-6123611275925937882009-07-11T20:54:10.192+12:002009-07-11T20:54:10.192+12:00Constitutional law expert Associate Professor Bill...Constitutional law expert Associate Professor Bill Hodge supports the provocation defence<br /><br />http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10583858<br /><br />A civilised society cannot condom vigilante justice. However there are cases where many people would not like to see someone jailed for life with a minimum of ten year non parole period. Take case of a parent who come home early and finds the baby sitter sexually abusing his or her child and looses control and kills the low life. <br /><br />The person must be punished but many people would say the should not get the same sentence a pre meditated killer like Gaye Oakes who got 10 years non parole.Chuck Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359116789492498882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-91108673123371498212009-07-11T16:19:49.815+12:002009-07-11T16:19:49.815+12:00Lineberry said "Oh yes, Mich, an appalling en...Lineberry said "Oh yes, Mich, an appalling end to a young life; however, it is for the Jury to decide if it is manslaughter (not facebook.com groups)."<br /><br />That *is* libertarianism I am afraid. Even though Weatherston is revolting.<br /><br />It is *not* up to Facebook and random bloggers to be judge and jury.<br /><br />Lineberry holds the correct libertarian position.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-52943216836775747402009-07-11T14:39:37.969+12:002009-07-11T14:39:37.969+12:00I read over at Kiwiblog that the police found a dr...I read over at Kiwiblog that the police found a drug like what is commonly called a date rape drug at the victim's house. Ambach also claims he was drugged. This has not been reported widely or not at all in the MSM. <br /><br />Does anyone know if their is any truth in this claim? I mean if the allegation was put to the jury not if he was actually true that he was druged.Chuck Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359116789492498882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-62838695508788972612009-07-11T11:14:37.484+12:002009-07-11T11:14:37.484+12:00I agree with Anglo, that Elijah & LGM are the ...I agree with Anglo, that Elijah & LGM are the 2 most off-putting Libz on this blog and Elijah is a bigot.SusanDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-56963989187163868802009-07-11T10:45:51.695+12:002009-07-11T10:45:51.695+12:00I am the greatest advocate of libertarianism; I wa...I am the greatest advocate of libertarianism; I was suggesting that Weatherston has rights and is entitled to a proper trial where a Jury will decide murder or manslaughter.<br /><br />Curiously, my view of 'freedom' and rights does not include someone being ripped to pieces by an angry mob of self righteous, precious people.<br /><br />Apologies, Anglo Amerikan if this fairly simple logic is too intelligent for you.<br /><br />No doubt you believe that two wolves and a lamb should take a vote on whether to eat a lamb...I say the lamb should be protected from such a vote taking place.Elijah Lineberrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-60535109862545340342009-07-11T08:14:39.185+12:002009-07-11T08:14:39.185+12:00If Weatherston had a shred of decency he would hav...If Weatherston had a shred of decency he would have killed himself by now.<br /><br />I vote Elijah Lineberry as the worst advocate for Libertarianism ever - totally off putting.AngloAmerikanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02002362092073890146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-37742203261715654222009-07-10T18:05:03.510+12:002009-07-10T18:05:03.510+12:00Well said, Peter. I don't have a problem with ...Well said, Peter. I don't have a problem with the trial, because he is making a noose of his testimony, for his own neck. But I do object to the very suggestion that provocation equals justification.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08024440694895271805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-11547065543417809332009-07-10T18:00:05.128+12:002009-07-10T18:00:05.128+12:00As for 'excessive force' in self defense:
...As for 'excessive force' in self defense:<br /><br />A punch can kill a person. A severe beating AFTER being hit by a single punch can VERY EASILY kill a person.<br /><br />Therefore there is no such thing as 'excessive force' in self defense to being attacked by an unarmed person, until the attacker is unconscious or otherwise incapacitated.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-62301048326671448352009-07-10T16:49:32.628+12:002009-07-10T16:49:32.628+12:00Look, even if she was every shitty thing that this...Look, even if she was every shitty thing that this prick is saying, well he stayed in the relationship with her. That in itself speaks volumes. He was free to end the relationship. And that is where it should have ended.Michnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-37201366239835017252009-07-10T15:36:04.470+12:002009-07-10T15:36:04.470+12:00Speaking of fundamental rights, someone is having ...Speaking of fundamental rights, someone is having fun with the referendum generator!<br /><br />http://should-a.com/3kib8e<br /><br />I think they misunderstand libertarianism! ;)Greig McGillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08159929906208157846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-61753867628987725582009-07-10T15:25:56.276+12:002009-07-10T15:25:56.276+12:00Oh, and one more thought.
Even if everything Weat...Oh, and one more thought.<br /><br />Even if everything Weatherston says about Sophie Elliot is true -- that she was a slut and a castrating shrew -- she didn't deserve to die because she had the poor judgment to be in a fucked-up relationship with a narcissistic rage-a-holic. <br /><br />Weatherston has the right to a fair trial, and a rigorous defence. But let's not forget that Sophie Elliot had an even more fundamental right: TO LIVE.Craig Ranapiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08923246310584658857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-61618026563836521372009-07-10T15:22:11.361+12:002009-07-10T15:22:11.361+12:00I'm sure someone has already said this, (and I...I'm sure someone has already said this, (and I'll say it in my Public Address Radio piece this week), but here's what really gets on my tits about "provocation":<br /><br />If you don't accept it as an excuse for thuggery from children -- and where I come from the statute of limitations of starting a brawl because "he asked for it" runs out the first day at kindy -- ...<br /><br />...why should we accept it from adults who are accused of murder?<br /><br />Elijah, with all due and sincere respect it is not disputed that Weatherston stabbed Sophie Elliot. Her body was found to have 216 "stabs and cuts" when examined by the coroner. Perhaps the bitch not only asked for it but (to quote Chicago's 'Cell Block Tango') she ran into his knife a couple of hundred times?<br /><br />Weatherston may be legally entitled to run a 'provocation' defence, in an attempt to reduce murder to manslaughter. But I think I'm also entitled to say that it's a load of shit, and a very ugly one in any society with any pretensions to being called civilized.<br /><br />And, finally, I find it very hard to feel much sympathy for Weatherston's sob story about his "stress" and emotional issues. I'm one of many people living with a mental illness (and a recovering alcoholic) who accepts total and unconditional personal responsibility for his actions, and the (sometimes very unpleasant) consequences that flow from them. It's called being a decent adult human being.Craig Ranapiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08923246310584658857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-80588427198243131482009-07-10T15:15:35.075+12:002009-07-10T15:15:35.075+12:00This comment has been removed by the author.Craig Ranapiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08923246310584658857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-31491475147898839352009-07-10T14:37:12.327+12:002009-07-10T14:37:12.327+12:00Provocation as in the recent cases, is no reason f...Provocation as in the recent cases, is no reason for killing someone not being called murder.<br /><br />But what about the case of excessive self defence ie, someone punches you, and you retaliated by killing them, even though you knew that they would not kill you, and you didn't need to actually kill them to defened yourself, but they initiated the force.<br /><br />And also what about the case of extreme provocation. Say someone tortured all your family members, and killed them in front of you just as you arrived. If the guy then dropped his weapon and surrendered, and you knew that the police had the house surrounded, and in-fact were just comming in the door i.e. there was no risk of the offender getting away or risk to you. If you shot the guy, would that be murder or manslaughter? To me that is manslaughter because of provocation. But only extreme provocation such as this should count. Provocation like "she was mean to me" shouldn't count.Comrade MOThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17064433671840996528noreply@blogger.com