tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post5589899916250862518..comments2024-03-22T11:55:50.335+13:00Comments on Not PC: Facts are not what motivate the anti-immigrationistsPeter Cresswellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-85246580053738080842017-03-12T14:24:55.546+13:002017-03-12T14:24:55.546+13:00So, the complaint is that the immigrants haven'...So, the complaint is that the immigrants haven't brought the crime rate down enough? Haha. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/10/15/crime-rises-among-second-generation-immigrants-as-they-assimilate/Monicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10223664599729768316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-83531607186540547492017-03-08T14:40:40.886+13:002017-03-08T14:40:40.886+13:00Brendan – We can’t have a productive discussion wh...Brendan – We can’t have a productive discussion when you devote 95% of your post to irrelevancies we agree on, and gloss over the key things that are relevant to our disagreement on this specific topic.<br /><br />I think you do this because you muddle the specific and the general. You think the general proves the specific, rather than vice versa.<br /><br />“Islam is a dangerous religion” (a general conclusion I don’t disagree with) does not equate to a specific conclusion that “Islamic immigration should be banned”, or the “statistics must be wrong” (as others have said).<br /><br />Conversely, Peter or myself showing a specific example of Islamic immigrants co-existing peacefully with the west does not mean we think Islam is a great religion.<br /><br />To the contrary, understanding the conditions under which peaceful co-existence occurs, as opposed to the conditions under which violence or dysfunction occurs is key to both a rational immigration policy, and to responding to the Islamic threat in the most effective way.<br /><br />Once you learn to make that distinction (between the specific and the general) without suffering cognitive dissonance, we can then perhaps have a productive discussion.<br />MarkThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06199883270652041621noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-91539703606612687942017-03-07T13:53:45.368+13:002017-03-07T13:53:45.368+13:00Hi Mark
Yes, I can accept that Singapore is an ex...Hi Mark<br /><br />Yes, I can accept that Singapore is an exception for reasons we probably both don’t fully understand, however I suspect that a strict regime, some may even say repressive, is the primary reason.<br /><br />Your suggestion that Muslims who ‘share in the prosperity have no motive to be violent’ is simply not borne out by the facts. Osama Ben Laden was a member of one of the Saudi’s most prosperous construction families. <br /><br />“"Historically, the idea that terrorists come from [poor and quasi-literate] backgrounds is a complete myth," says Bruce Hoffman, a counterterrorism expert at Georgetown University. "They are much more likely to be well-educated and come from middle-class and wealthy families."<br /><br />http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1947703,00.html<br /><br />At the risk of repeating myself, jihadists are ideologically motivated. Islamic theology supports violent jihad and teaches Muslims they are serving God when killing the infidel. Being killed in jihad is the only redemptive narrative in Islam, it is the only way you can be assured of paradise. Everything else a Muslim does including practicing the five pillars of Islam provides at best a subjective hope, no certainty of acceptance by Allah. <br /><br />Only death by jihad provides certainty. This is the reason why the killers of drummer Rigby in London stood around for 15 minutes afterwards waiting to be shot by police, why they charged at the police when they arrived – they wanted to be killed – they had a certain expectation of paradise.<br /><br />This is the reason why Hamas and other terrorist groups say ‘We love death like you love life’. They believe life on earth is something to be endured before acceptance into paradise where their true life begins.<br /><br />https://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/07/hamas-we-love-death-like-our-enemies-love-life<br /><br />This is a difficult thing for the secular mind to grasp. Once you understand it, then it gives some perspective into Islam, the Middle East, into domestic terrorism in the West, and why we could do without more Islam in our midst.<br />Brendan McNeillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02741263914308842497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-41129031341101537922017-03-07T12:26:46.335+13:002017-03-07T12:26:46.335+13:00Brendan - you continue to evade the specific examp...Brendan - you continue to evade the specific example of Singapore I put to you, and assume I hold views that I don't. I'm not going to argue that in general everything is fine and dandy in Islamic countries, because it's clearly not, and I agree it's a religion with serious problems that poses a threat to our security. Peter and I have never argued anything different, but you and others continue to pretend this general point supports the more specific claims you are making.<br /><br />You earlier said "It's a numbers game. 1% as we have in NZ is not really a problem. 2%-4% as they have in parts of Australia begins to be problematic with occasional acts of violence. 8%-10% as they have in France, well then you have acts of mass slaughter and a state of civil emergency". To which I pointed out a prosperous and relatively free country that has more than that (15% citizens - and based on what I saw I'd say a higher proportion visiting or resident at any time) and none of the problems you describe. This example contradicts or it at least an exception to your theses, and that you continue to evade it demonstrates the headline of Peter's post.<br /><br />At the very least you should want to understand why Singapore can coexist peacefully with this proportion of Muslims, and we allegedly can't. You come close when you say "Our problem is that we have lost our cultural confidence, embraced the false narrative of cultural relativism, and consequently failed to provide a positive cultural identity for migrants to integrate into". I'd agree with that, but I would also add it's because Singapore has free trade and relatively free movement of people (within a framework of tight security and zero tolerance of crime), meaning that the Muslims there are sharing in the prosperity and have no motive to be violent.<br /><br />This doesn't make Islam a benign religion, but it does indicate a path we should be heading down if we want to make it benign. I believe your approach will lead to the opposite.MarkThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06199883270652041621noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-34302846002785550772017-03-07T11:28:32.344+13:002017-03-07T11:28:32.344+13:00"Because the report is not about immigration;..."Because the report is not about immigration; it is about Islamic terrorists in the UK"<br /><br />How did the Islamic population get there Peter? It doesn't matter if the terrorism is committed by the 1st generation or the 2nd: the common sense solution to the problem is to minimise the Muslim population in western countries.<br /><br />There has been no shortage of evidence presented by myself and others, but you arbitrarily decide it's all either irrelevant or inadmissible. Like trying to debate evolution with a Christian.<br /><br />Thomas Sowell could hardly have picked a more flawed example than India. Why are Indian expats not emblematic of India as a whole? Well which of India's deeply entrenched castes do you think India's successful immigrants come from? <br /><br />You're conflating examples of selective immigration policy with your utopian libertarian fantasy. And you're also conflating Muslim immigration with immigration in general. <br /><br />Can you outline in theory how 1 million Somali immigrants pouring into NZ over a year or two could possibly not cause substantial problems? Because if you can't, you'll have to admit your immigration ideology is completely absurd.Bennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-6983722441094028632017-03-07T08:59:19.740+13:002017-03-07T08:59:19.740+13:00Hi Mark
The problem with Islam in western nations...Hi Mark<br /><br />The problem with Islam in western nations is not related to the way the west deals with crime and terrorism, at least not in the way you suggest. The problem with Islam is that it is a barbaric 7th centaury ideology that proscribes death to the infidel, the apostate, the blasphemer and the heretic, and is entirely at odds with liberal democracy.<br /><br />Why do you think the Sudan, Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somalia are violent hell holes? Why did 500,000 Muslims in Bangladesh march on their capital demanding the death penalty for atheists? <br /><br />Why is Denmark prosecuting an individual for burning a Koran and violating Islamic blasphemy laws? Unrelated? No, Denmark also has a Muslim population that it’s political elite wish to appease. <br /><br />All of NZ’s media self-sensor when it comes to Islam – refuse to print Mohammad cartoons for example, produce puff pieces featuring peaceful Muslims. A growing Muslim presence in the west has a chilling effect on free speech which is a corner stone of western civilization.<br /><br />Yes, I agree we are the problem, but not for the reasons you suggest. Our problem is that we have lost our cultural confidence, embraced the false narrative of cultural relativism, and consequently failed to provide a positive cultural identity for migrants to integrate into.<br /><br />It is arguable if many Muslims even want to adopt western ‘values’ lifestyle and practices, preferring instead to live in closed self-reinforcing communities that are effectively parallel societies. That is the experience in much of Britain and Europe, parts of Sydney and Melbourne. It will be our experience too unless we act now.<br />Brendan McNeillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02741263914308842497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-80145745468955251582017-03-07T02:57:43.492+13:002017-03-07T02:57:43.492+13:00Peter:
I'm not sure how you can say the "...Peter:<br /><br />I'm not sure how you can say the "anti immigration" side hasn't presented evidence. The National Review piece I linked to (written by an immigrant in Sweden) says as follows:<br />________<br /><br />Between 1990 and 2015, the homicide rate in Sweden declined from 1.3 to 1.1 per 100,000. This drop is less than that in Western Europe as a whole, where the homicide rate declined from 1.3 to 0.6 in 2013, the latest year reported by the World Health Organization. In Finland, the homicide rate declined from 3.2 to 1.3 during the same period, and in Norway from 1.1 to 0.4. The rate was stable at 0.8 in Denmark.<br />_________________<br /><br />I also pointed out that at least 50% of France's prison population is Muslim.* This isn't evidence?<br /><br />-MM<br />_____________<br />*http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11352268/What-is-going-wrong-in-Frances-prisons.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-46695828874750812032017-03-06T21:22:54.960+13:002017-03-06T21:22:54.960+13:00Brendan - what on earth has the state of Indonesia...Brendan - what on earth has the state of Indonesia and Malaysia got to do with the facts I raised? The only relevance was that not only is Singapore 15% Muslim, bit it's surrounded by 100's of millions of other Muslims in all directions, through which I'm sure there is regular trade and movement of people . Yet it remains a relatively free and prosperous nation almost completely free of violence, which according to you theory should not be possible. <br /><br />You try to dismiss this because Singapore is Asian, yet for all intensive purposes it is Western, founded on British law and free trade, and remains prosperous because it more or less stays true to this foundation. But even if you were correct that their culture is significantly different, doesn't that make Peter's point - that the problems the West encounters with Islam has more to do with how the west deals with crime and terrorism, not immigration or "numbers" per se?MarkThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06199883270652041621noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-50455293710725914442017-03-06T18:26:13.306+13:002017-03-06T18:26:13.306+13:00Hi Peter
Yes, thank you for the correction – it i...Hi Peter<br /><br />Yes, thank you for the correction – it is indeed the ‘Henry Jackson Society’. I agree that Douglas Murray is a credible commentator on the impact of Islam in Britain and Europe.<br /><br />I haven not been a regular visitor to your blog, but came as a result of a tweet regarding this particular article as immigration is an issue of interest to me, as I’m sure it is for many.<br /><br />For me the issue is not whether the jihadist who beheaded my neighbour was a recent immigrant, or a third-generation Somali, Pakistani, or Afghan living in Britain. Either way my neighbour is dead.<br /><br />Presently Muslims represent about 4.7% of the British population. While some may be indigenous converts, it is not unreasonable to assume that the overwhelming majority are immigrants or the children / grand children of immigrants.<br /><br />My issue is not with immigration per say. I happen to think that immigration is a good thing when it benefits both the immigrant and the host nation. It’s difficult to argue the case for Muslim immigration however, when clearly Islam is an illiberal ideology entirely incompatible with Western civilization, at least when its followers take its precepts seriously, as many do.<br /><br />So, yes to immigration, no to Muslim immigration for the reasons I have outlined above, at least until the Muslim world repudiates the doctrine of Jihad, the supremacy of the sharia, and its followers learn to play nicely with others.<br />Brendan McNeillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02741263914308842497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-70420612863139633232017-03-06T18:10:16.306+13:002017-03-06T18:10:16.306+13:00Brendan,
FYI, the report is not by the Andrew Ja...Brendan, <br /><br />FYI, the report is not by the Andrew Jackson Society, but the *Henry* Jackson Society, a neoconservative group headed by Douglas Murray. (Did you read the report, or just the summary in the Daily Mail?)<br /><br />That said, while I don't know very much about Murray, if you've been reading me you should already know I have no disagreement with Murray's general argument that "Conditions for Muslims in Europe must be made harder across the board: Europe must look like a less attractive proposition. We in Europe owe – after all – no special dues to Islam. We owe them no religious holidays, special rights or privileges. From long before we were first attacked it should have been made plain that people who come into Europe are here under our rules and not theirs. If some Muslims don’t have a mosque to go to, then they’ll just have to realise that they aren’t owed one."<br /><br />That is all very important. But it doesn't mean they should be locked out -- nor that Mexicans et al should be locked out and deported from the States. <br /><br />On the specific issue, you need to show that the increase from 11 to 23 terror attacks p.a. (a similar number to Irish terror attacks back in the day) is due to greater immmigration. The report does not do that, nor try to.<br /><br />You would need to show that the 39 convicted terrorists out of 234,000 Birmingham Muslims were recent immigrants. The report does not do that, nor try to.<br /><br />Because the report is not about immigration; it is about Islamic terrorists in the UK -- which it suggests are homegrown. So it still does not say what you want it to say -- and it leaves aside the argument, that I've made here many times, that the primary problem is not exernal (at the borders) but internal (how the west deals with crime and terrorism, and with different cultures in relation to its own),<br /><br />So I don't doubt many of the figures you cite, which we agree are appalling (but not appreciably different to those associated with Irish terror), but could you please indicate *precisely* what this shows about the specific issue in question.<br /><br />May I also suggest the general use of quotation marks, so that we know what is your writing and which is that of the Daily Mail ...<br /><br />Peter Cresswellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-89463591270218283362017-03-06T17:04:40.006+13:002017-03-06T17:04:40.006+13:00Hi Peter,
you might find more than 'arm wavi...Hi Peter, <br /><br />you might find more than 'arm waving' regarding the negative impact of Muslim immigration to Britain (and the West generally) in the upcoming 1,000 page Andrew Jackson Society report, the main findings of which are prefaced here by the Daily Mail:<br /><br />The number of Islamist terror offences doubled in the five years to 2015 from 12 to 23 a year. <br /><br />Women’s involvement in Islamist terrorism in the UK has trebled in the same period from 4 per cent to 11 per cent.<br /><br />Bombing is the most common type of offence planned or committed but there has been an 11-fold increase in plots involving Islamic State-style beheadings and stabbings.<br /><br />Only 10 per cent of terror attacks were carried out by ‘lone wolves’ unconnected to wider extremist networks.<br /><br />The landmark report has analysed all aspects of every Islamist terror case including plotting or carrying out attacks, funding jihadis and offering support to terror groups.<br /><br />The most chilling findings are clear geographical clusters of terrorism, often linked to areas with highly segregated Muslim communities.<br /><br />Birmingham, with 234,000 Muslims, has a total of 39 convicted terrorists.<br /><br />http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4282510/Terrorism-UK-trebles-five-years.html<br /><br />The evidence is there and it is compelling, and what's more with this report it is no longer anecdotal. Brendan McNeillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02741263914308842497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-45884884352233316512017-03-06T15:47:09.914+13:002017-03-06T15:47:09.914+13:00PS: By the way, Ben, let me point you to a phenome...PS: By the way, Ben, let me point you to a phenomenon highlighted by Thomas Sowell in his superb trilogy on Culture, that immigrants are often very different from the cultures and places from which they choose to emigrate. <br /><br />One telling example he used to cite was that of India, in recent history a basket case, and yet everywhere in the world India emigres elected to settle Indians are generally regarded as hard-working, industrious and business-like.<br /><br />He cited several other similar examples, but the point here being that , yes, we're all aware that many Arabic and Islamic cultures are basket cases; but that doesn't necessarily mean very much at all about who those emigres from those places may be once they settle elsewhere. If you claim something about them then as a mass, which is what you have been doing, you need more than just arm-waving. You need actual evidence. (And here I repeat myself.)Peter Cresswellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-78784341782045923982017-03-06T15:37:05.348+13:002017-03-06T15:37:05.348+13:00Ben, you and your friends have been making the cla...Ben, you and your friends have been making the claims - very specific claims that you say you "know" to be true. So the onus of proof for these claims are on you.<br /><br />Yet, consistently, when asked to present the evidence for how you "know" any of thhese things, there's nothing to show, is there. It just isn't there is it. <br /><br />Instead, you repeatedly draw the same long bows about Swedish crime and rising Mexican immigration and the Chinese buying all our houses and most terrorism is committed by immigrants and refugeees and Galt knows what else, and when challenged to present evidence to back up any of these things you say are true you can't, and instead I find when I search for it that, almost consistently, that the evidence actually points the other way.<br /><br />So is it any wonder I become impatient with you and your friends and your favourite websites and conclude, after watching this happen so consistently for several years, that maybe you believe all your trip not because of any evidence but *despite* it.<br /><br />And just so you know, bluster is not evidence. It's an excuse for the lack of it.<br /><br />NB: You may have one more opportunity to post substantive evidence for any one of your fevered claims, following which this conversation is over.Peter Cresswellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-44231408963359104482017-03-06T15:05:58.361+13:002017-03-06T15:05:58.361+13:00You want evidence Peter? What about Islamic countr...You want evidence Peter? What about Islamic countries? virtually all basket cases. And countries with an Islamic minority have problems in direct proportion to their Muslim population. France may be about to elect the far-right Le Pen precisely due to a head-in-the-sand PC attitude toward Islam by the incumbent politicians.<br /><br />I've noticed that if you search for "statistics" on this blog you get a lot of articles pointing out the proclivity of governments to lie with statistics. But as soon as government statistics support your worldview this healthy scepticism evaporates.<br /><br />If there's anyone whose immigration beliefs are based on religious dogma, it's you Peter.Bennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-75115657342361825522017-03-06T13:31:32.272+13:002017-03-06T13:31:32.272+13:00Hi Mark
In the West it is definitely a numbers ga...Hi Mark<br /><br />In the West it is definitely a numbers game. <br /><br />Singapore is an Asian culture with a very authoritarian Government that rigorously suppresses dissent. As for the Muslim nations of Malaysia and Indonesia, if you were to read our mainstream media you would think they are examples of tolerance and inclusion.<br /><br />However, I encourage you to google ‘Christian persecution in Malaysia/Indonesia’ to obtain a more sobering picture. Minorities are persecuted everywhere Islam is in charge - without exception.<br />Brendan McNeillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02741263914308842497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-91097757028966883662017-03-06T12:09:19.384+13:002017-03-06T12:09:19.384+13:00It's actually not difficult. You simply need t...It's actually not difficult. You simply need to provide evidence, boys, for the facts you assume. You're making the claims, which are substantial, so you're obliged to present the substantial evidence that supports it.<br />That you can't suggests your beliefs are held more like a religion than they are a science.<br />NB: I don't believe I've ever mentioned Israel in this context, so I'm guessing this is simply you making something thing up. So I guess you are at least consistent.Peter Cresswellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-34680881563637036892017-03-06T11:53:39.834+13:002017-03-06T11:53:39.834+13:00Ben, you are right. Peter thinks you could turn S...Ben, you are right. Peter thinks you could turn Sweden into Somalia but the crime rate wouldn't go up. Likewise, he belives Israel will not have more crime if it opens itself up to mass Islamic immigration. At least he is consistent.<br /><br />-MMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-38017471925746195722017-03-06T11:41:38.141+13:002017-03-06T11:41:38.141+13:00Your "argument" is irrelevant.
The numbe...Your "argument" is irrelevant.<br />The numbers are raw numbers. They record crime rates. Yet they do not show the explosion in total crime rates that is one of your main talking points, i.e., that there is supposed to be a correlation between rising immigration numbers and rising crime.<br /><br />Yet despite this alleged explosion being one of your main talking points you have zero evidence for this alleged correlation, and have shown none.<br /><br />And that you are now reduced to muttering conspiracy theories about the real numbers being hidden shows that there was no basis even to begin that talking point.<br /><br />So, boys, after all your talking, either bring some actual evidence or bugger off.Peter Cresswellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-52623015558458024612017-03-06T10:19:01.123+13:002017-03-06T10:19:01.123+13:00Forget it Mark. I tried to argue this common sense...Forget it Mark. I tried to argue this common sense and Peter wasn't having any of it.Bennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-26958543343344863432017-03-06T09:27:47.857+13:002017-03-06T09:27:47.857+13:00Brendan - If it's a "numbers game", ...Brendan - If it's a "numbers game", and the problem starts at 2-4%, how do you explain Singapore; which has a Muslim population of 15%, and much larger Islamic majority nations to the north and south (Malaysia and Indonesia). By your theory it should be a really dangerous place for Westerners, and have one of the worst crime & terrorism rates in the world. But instead they have one of the lowest crime rates in the world, have never suffered a single incident of Islamic terrorism. In a recent vist I felt incredibly safe there, including a little walk I did with my young family around the Islamic quarter. How do you explain that?MarkThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06199883270652041621noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-42595139991454592462017-03-05T05:32:29.774+13:002017-03-05T05:32:29.774+13:00"Most immigrants I've met seem much more ..."Most immigrants I've met seem much more motivated to work or start a business, than suck off the Govts teat, or blow us up."<br /><br />If it weren't for my job (prisons) I would never have known anyone who has been to prison. This is Bastiaits "seen and unseen" question. Why would a typical working guy see unemployed slackers?<br /><br />-Mart MartinsonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-69835551525286169102017-03-05T05:30:41.695+13:002017-03-05T05:30:41.695+13:00If immigration isn't incresaing crime in Swede...If immigration isn't incresaing crime in Sweden then why did Sweden pass a law preventing the reporting of country of origin with respect to crime statistics? And what does that tell you about the accuracy of these statistics? Remember Sweden has hate speech laws so a statistician who argued that immigration caused crime could be prosecuted.<br /><br />-Mark MartinsonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-11729782290365068112017-03-04T13:30:02.669+13:002017-03-04T13:30:02.669+13:00Immigration and crime is a complex issue. Heck, c...Immigration and crime is a complex issue. Heck, crime statistics are complicated enough.<br /><br />This is the best article I've seen about crime and Sweden. Certainly importing hundreds of thousands of third worlders hasn't been good, even if the right is exaggerating a bit:<br /><br />http://www.nationalreview.com/article/445237/sweden-crime-rates-statistics-immigration-trump-fox-news<br /><br />-Mark MartinsonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-15005872339688229742017-03-04T00:24:40.152+13:002017-03-04T00:24:40.152+13:00Vote count numbers are factual, to high level of a...Vote count numbers are factual, to high level of accuracy . paul scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15675247055484136242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-18851330408322009192017-03-03T16:57:09.609+13:002017-03-03T16:57:09.609+13:00There needs to be a distinction made between immig...There needs to be a distinction made between immigrants and invaders. Any immigrants that want to enter a country with the intent of forcibly replacing that country's culture , laws, with their own are invaders not immigrants and it is the gov'ts job to repel these people so as to protect the freedoms and rights of the citizens of that country. Immigrants mostly are beneficial providing they respect the laws and the rights of other people, Those muslims that want to install their islam ideology along with their sharia law are invaders.Don Walkernoreply@blogger.com