tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post4513574773175838878..comments2024-03-30T00:09:27.602+13:00Comments on Not PC: Can't fly, can't sail, can't fightPeter Cresswellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-75920837850587020602008-09-08T19:06:00.000+12:002008-09-08T19:06:00.000+12:00LukeIn this case the string is very short. The po...Luke<BR/><BR/>In this case the string is very short. <BR/><BR/>The point is that the "supplies" to which you refer would not last very long. In the NZ context there would not be very much resistance after a month or so anyway. For a start there would not be that much material available to "stockpile" in the first place. Second issue to consider is where would resupply be coming from? How far away is that? How to successfully deliver it, exactly? <BR/><BR/>In short, you are dreaming. The scheme has too many holes and assumes fallacies. <BR/><BR/>Too bad!<BR/><BR/>LGMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-51586600182264719732008-09-08T14:14:00.000+12:002008-09-08T14:14:00.000+12:00*(rolls eyes)*How long is a piece of string?*(rolls eyes)*<BR/><BR/>How long is a piece of string?Luke Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09929408708481681826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-61615247468283021592008-09-08T11:51:00.000+12:002008-09-08T11:51:00.000+12:00LukePerhaps. But how long do you think those supp...Luke<BR/><BR/>Perhaps. But how long do you think those supplies would last?<BR/><BR/>LGMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-84545261781697335812008-09-08T10:37:00.000+12:002008-09-08T10:37:00.000+12:00Unlike Tomorrow When The War Began, in which the e...Unlike <I>Tomorrow When The War Began</I>, in which the entirety of Australia is invaded with zero days notice, wars generally have months of tensions followed by weeks of troop positioning before a war begins. It wuld take at least six weeks to move a sizeable force into New Zealand waters; so at least that amount of time could be spent obtaining and stockpiling large quantities of ammunitition, timers, dynamite, etc.Luke Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09929408708481681826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-30151026842717775782008-09-08T09:49:00.000+12:002008-09-08T09:49:00.000+12:00Luke HAssuming a determined invader occupies NZ ju...Luke H<BR/><BR/>Assuming a determined invader occupies NZ just how long do you reckon those supplies of small arms etc. might last? Six weeks? Six days? <BR/><BR/>One of the many problems the defenders would face is that of securing on-going supplies. This place aint Vietnam or even Europe...<BR/><BR/>LGMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-2217378485596823802008-09-07T13:45:00.000+12:002008-09-07T13:45:00.000+12:00"supplies of small arms and ammunition, explosives...<I>"supplies of small arms and ammunition, explosives and food,"</I><BR/><BR/>Interestingly, that is a fair description of the large quantities of accurate long-range rifles, ammonium nitrate fertiliser (can be used as explosive), privately owned petrol and diesel tanks and livestock (a food supply) kept all over New Zealand by farmers.Luke Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09929408708481681826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-1713306344109368302008-09-07T07:32:00.000+12:002008-09-07T07:32:00.000+12:00PCI wonder what citizens are defending when they g...PC<BR/><BR/>I wonder what citizens are defending when they go to a war. Is it the political system and the politicians? Is it the territory (the geographic "country"). Is it their culture and way of life? Is it their loved ones? As often as not it would seem that the citizens actually fight and die for the politicians, although they may believe they are doing it for other reasons and values. <BR/><BR/>In the context of NZ, what values would be motivate people enough to stand and fight for. Is there anything here that people would consider that important? Perhaps...? Perhaps not...? <BR/><BR/>What do you think? <BR/><BR/>LGMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-45029085893824237682008-09-07T07:20:00.000+12:002008-09-07T07:20:00.000+12:00KGYou evaded the question and then presented an ex...KG<BR/><BR/>You evaded the question and then presented an excuse. <BR/><BR/>Oh well.<BR/><BR/>LGMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-81522627418826374672008-09-06T17:15:00.000+12:002008-09-06T17:15:00.000+12:00lol! I'm not "evading" anything LGM. And gave you...lol! I'm not "evading" anything LGM. And gave you the reason.KGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01940428991630766942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-20343672932864815412008-09-06T15:54:00.000+12:002008-09-06T15:54:00.000+12:00KGIf you are perfectly capable of stating an answe...KG<BR/><BR/>If you are perfectly capable of stating an answer to the question, then why can't you answer it? It was a simple enough question, one which you evaded- twice. <BR/><BR/>LGMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-44414099017779379362008-09-06T08:54:00.000+12:002008-09-06T08:54:00.000+12:00LGM, I'm perfectly capable of stating what I mean ...LGM, I'm perfectly capable of stating what I mean by national will and it seems both PC and Mo understand the term as well.<BR/>But I've no intention of engaging in some kind of crapfight where we end up arguing over definitions.<BR/><BR/>Mo, point taken. But it seems to me that if Kiwis had some training and a great deal of determination then ultra-sophisticated weapons would be unnecessary. Guaranteed supplies of small arms and ammunition, explosives and food, a widely distributed intelligence network and a willingness to absorb losses are perhaps more useful.<BR/>The problem with sophisticated weapons is the huge logistical tail needed to service them (manning, maintenance, repair and safe housing)and the sheer cost of replacements.<BR/>I fought in Rhodesia and learned very quickly that in the field what counts is flexibility and training and above all <I>commitment.</I><BR/>And that was true for both sides.KGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01940428991630766942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-85731644238518915732008-09-06T07:57:00.000+12:002008-09-06T07:57:00.000+12:00I don't think the question is at all complicated. ...I don't think the question is at all complicated. What I was agreeing with "100%" was the fact that no matter how many tools the citizens of a country might have to defend themselves, they're of absolutely zero use if too few citizens give a rat's arse about defending the place.<BR/><BR/>I think two invasions of Iraq demonstrated that. And perhaps all the earlier invasions of Afghanistan demonstrated the contrary proposition.Peter Cresswellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-14104934429823945222008-09-06T07:09:00.000+12:002008-09-06T07:09:00.000+12:00KGSurely you are capable of stating (briefly) what...KG<BR/><BR/>Surely you are capable of stating (briefly) what national will, in the NZ context, actually is. Well? What is it? Or are you merely stating some arbitrary assertions based on false premise?<BR/><BR/>LGMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-15991198470460645722008-09-06T01:38:00.000+12:002008-09-06T01:38:00.000+12:00national will is important but highly sophisticate...national will is important but highly sophisticated weapons are just as important. no point having the will to defend yourself without having the necessary tools to do it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-82367202318246538332008-09-05T19:47:00.000+12:002008-09-05T19:47:00.000+12:00look it up.look it up.KGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01940428991630766942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-62055910146340500662008-09-05T19:18:00.000+12:002008-09-05T19:18:00.000+12:00What is national will? {referent the NZ context}....What is national will? {referent the NZ context}.<BR/><BR/>Answers please.<BR/><BR/>Cheers <BR/><BR/>LGMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-3078103677725445862008-09-05T10:28:00.000+12:002008-09-05T10:28:00.000+12:00On which we agree 100%, KG.On which we agree 100%, KG.Peter Cresswellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-58167849766076778762008-09-05T09:03:00.000+12:002008-09-05T09:03:00.000+12:00Thanks for the link PC. We could argue all day abo...Thanks for the link PC. <BR/>We could argue all day about how the 10 billion might be spent, so I won't go there, except to say that high-tech equipment (and the problems manning and maintaining it) are less important than the national will to resist.KGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01940428991630766942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-81394764515677057392008-09-05T08:57:00.000+12:002008-09-05T08:57:00.000+12:00Anonymous, you said, "Or else, yeah, we trust Chin...Anonymous, you said, "<I>Or else, yeah, we trust China. or the US.<BR/>or we just ask Aussie what they want and we say "yes sir". Which seems to be the Libz policy!</I>"<BR/><BR/>You seem to be looking at a different policy, sir/madam -- perhaps that of National and Labour, who intend to just say "yes sir" to the UN. <BR/><BR/>In any case, perhaps you could point out that particular plank to which you refer in <A HREF="http://libertarianz.org.nz/?policy=defence" REL="nofollow">Libz defence policy</A>?<BR/><BR/>And perhaps other readers could check <A HREF="http://libertarianz.org.nz/?libzpr=511" REL="nofollow">Libz alternative budget</A>, which demonstrates how Libz intend to pay for that policy.<BR/><BR/>I think you'll find that your objections are already met.Peter Cresswellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-67758225514347088282008-09-05T08:32:00.000+12:002008-09-05T08:32:00.000+12:00New Zealand simply can't afford highly sophisticat...New Zealand simply can't afford highly sophisticated weapons systems and the infrastructure costs necessary to support them.<BR/>The best insurance against invasion is alliances and the most effective weapon against invaders who manage to land here is a well armed, well trained and motivated population.<BR/>But NZ governments will never accept arms in the homes of citizens along the lines of Switzerland for fear of domestic unrest.<BR/>Not that Kiwis <I>en masse</I> will ever rise up against their government, but certain groups may use those arms and that training to terrorise others.<BR/>In any case, I seriously doubt Kiwis nowadays have the stomach for a serious battle with any foreign invader--that would mean turning of the television and forgoing their comfortable battery-hen existence.KGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01940428991630766942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-19691599821244816602008-09-05T07:19:00.000+12:002008-09-05T07:19:00.000+12:00why not nuclear weapons e.g nuclear submarines lik...<I>why not nuclear weapons e.g nuclear submarines like the ones Germany possess.<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>Germany doesn't have any nuclear subs. Conventional hunter-killers, yep. Sells 'em to israel who puts nukes in 'em, yep. <BR/><BR/><I>what about F-15 Eagles, F-16 Fighting Falcons, </I><BR/><BR/>Old crap planes. Better get Su-30MKIs if you're after that generation. <BR/><BR/>but the real question is: how many are you going to buy? As many even as Aussie? No? then what's the point!<BR/><BR/><I><BR/>They are won by the side best able to keep their combat troops supplied with men, bullets and food. </I><BR/><BR/>The are won by the side most willing to die for freedom. 1) US 1776. 2) Iraq 2008. <BR/><BR/>(OK there is another option: most willing to kill in very large numbers: Japan 1945)<BR/><BR/><I><BR/>Hillarious! An armchair general wants to use stingers to shoot at strike fighters! Pop. Pop. Pop!<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>Nope. At those apaches you're all drooling over.<BR/>OK we could get something better. But they're pretty good in Iraq right now. <BR/><BR/><I>BTW New Zealanders are not anything like hardened Afghani fighters. They'll not "bleed" anyone dry- not unless it's welfare handouts you're referring to. </I><BR/><BR/><B>And THAT is the problem that we must fix if we ever want to defend NZ</B><BR/><BR/><I>In the end the "defense" available to NZ lies in the interests of larger countries. Do as the US wants or end up being being told to do as China or whichever regional power wants.</I><BR/><BR/>Or be responsible for ourselves - as if we - you know, loved freedom and "liberty". <BR/><BR/>Again, it's not just Iraq, it's also Swizerland & lefty countries like Scandinavia. If you must by fucking strike fighters (and won't by 30MKI's at least buy Viggens that we can put a couple in a hangar next too school halls and fly off every straight road in the south island).<BR/><BR/>Or else, yeah, we trust China. or the US.<BR/><BR/>or we just ask Aussie what they want and we say "yes sir".<BR/><BR/>which seems to be the Libz policy!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-25272933504541808322008-09-05T07:03:00.000+12:002008-09-05T07:03:00.000+12:00Hillarious! An armchair general wants to use stin...Hillarious! An armchair general wants to use stingers to shoot at strike fighters! Pop. Pop. Pop!<BR/><BR/>"Stupid indeed are the dreams of fools!"<BR/><BR/>BTW New Zealanders are not anything like hardened Afghani fighters. They'll not "bleed" anyone dry- not unless it's welfare handouts you're referring to.<BR/><BR/>In the end the "defense" available to NZ lies in the interests of larger countries. Do as the US wants or end up being being told to do as China or whichever regional power wants.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LGMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-50255668668087013602008-09-05T05:50:00.000+12:002008-09-05T05:50:00.000+12:00And another thing: any force we field (mercenary o...And another thing: any force we field (mercenary or indigenous) must be present in the country and able to respond quickly to a threat.<BR/><BR/>A company that supplies mercenaries is not going to have excess people just sitting around waiting for a 911 call. Such people would not be earning the company any money. Instead such companies wait for a contract and then hire on such staff as they require. <BR/><BR/>I'll leave the reader to figure out why having a delay in response time to a military emergency is unacceptable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-78696185238352616022008-09-05T05:40:00.000+12:002008-09-05T05:40:00.000+12:00Moataz,The idea is to get the best & most mode...Moataz,<BR/><BR/>The idea is to get the best & most modern equipment that we can at a price we can afford. Within those parameters - anything goes.<BR/><BR/>To those who wonder why we need an established indigenous military force, you need to consider how wars are won:<BR/><BR/>They are won by the side best able to keep their combat troops supplied with men, bullets and food. Logistics are the key to battle (An army marches on its stomach - Napoleon).<BR/><BR/>Firstly, there are NO mercenary forces are able to meet that burden - none that can fight a protracted war on our behalf. The mercenary forces that do exist are land-based and capable of counter insurgency operations only.<BR/><BR/>If you lot want to set up such a force on your own dime (and it proves to be up to the job) Libz promises to reconsider. Until then, you're dreaming. <BR/><BR/>~BUT~ I feel I need to point out the obvious: NZ is an Island. <BR/><BR/>To refuse (by deleting the combat wing of the RNZAF or deleting the RNZN) to fight an enemy intent on invasion or harassing this nation while they are still on the ocean leaves you to fight him only after he lands on your soil. <BR/><BR/>The stupidity of such an option in an era when single-seat fighter aircraft are capable of carrying 4 ship killing missiles each (see F/A-18E and similar) should not need to be pointed out to anyone with half a brain.<BR/><BR/>And may I also point out, that no mercenary force in the world with such capability exists. Again, should anyone care to set that business up and get it running successfully, we'll reconsider.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-32764078763544066362008-09-05T01:48:00.000+12:002008-09-05T01:48:00.000+12:00why not nuclear weapons e.g nuclear submarines lik...why not nuclear weapons e.g nuclear submarines like the ones Germany possess.<BR/><BR/>what about F-15 Eagles, F-16 Fighting Falcons, and the AH-64 Apache.<BR/><BR/>there is plenty of options we can use.mike250https://www.blogger.com/profile/13771261746381180701noreply@blogger.com