tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post3659328568867034342..comments2024-03-29T10:51:27.752+13:00Comments on Not PC: We have to talk about SwedenPeter Cresswellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-69303102575435342392017-03-03T06:17:45.996+13:002017-03-03T06:17:45.996+13:00Conceptually I'm perfectly fine with acknowled...Conceptually I'm perfectly fine with acknowledging that if refugees are responsible for 1% of incidents, they're not a particularly compelling cause of the incidents. You're looking at the assessment wrong--they're not trying to determine if refugees are more violent than the rest of the population, but rather if what the causes for these incidents are. A subtle but important distinction. <br /><br />If refugees coming into Sweden were a major cause for increased violence we would expect the number to be significant--at least 10/15%, but I'd prefer to see 25% or more (determining this cut-off is more art than science). 1% means that refugees are an insignificant contributing factor. Dinwarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06138006602385020048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-2663716348300028232017-03-02T13:02:52.899+13:002017-03-02T13:02:52.899+13:00The issue Richard is not that you have concerns ar...The issue Richard is not that you have concerns around Islamic immigration. It's your complete lack of perspective when arguing this issue, and the fact you jump to conclusions based on anecdotes. In this case you've dismissed what appears to be comprehensive data that we have no objective reason to doubt, entirely because it doesn't support your position. This has been all this particular discussion has been about, despite your attempts to broaden it. It's exactly the same mentality as a climate-change catastrophist, who when you show them worldwide data over time showing overall warming trends are mild and managable, responds with "All I care about is that we just had a bloody hot summer and I nearly died from the heat - therefore the data must be wrong". That's an invalid approach because valid conclusions derive from all the relevant facts, not just the ones that support a negative (or positive) conclusion.<br /><br />Yes Peter has been less than civil to you, but I can't blame him when he's had to endure years of this approach from you. The rational response when presented with facts that contradict your position is not to assume they must be wrong. By all means check if they are wrong, but if they're not, you need to integrate that new information into your conclusions in a non-contradictory way. MarkThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06199883270652041621noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-4044387516527668052017-03-02T12:35:32.464+13:002017-03-02T12:35:32.464+13:00Not so much under-reporting but a complete lack of...Not so much under-reporting but a complete lack of relevant stats for this issue. Where are the rape & sexual assault figures broken down by ethnic group?<br /><br />We have these stats in NZ. They don't have them in Sweden (anymore). <br /><br />A mountain of anecdotal evidence, suspicious lack of relevant statistics, and a substantial reduction from what was previously the most generous country per capita for refugee intake. I think it's pretty logical to say that Sweden has a problem with Islamic immigrants.<br /><br /> Bennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-55599187335804937812017-03-02T08:37:29.889+13:002017-03-02T08:37:29.889+13:00And one last thing that sticks in my craw, Peter. ...And one last thing that sticks in my craw, Peter. This passing myself off as an authority bollocks. Another straw man from you, this time in order to knock it down. I'm just a bloke with concerns and opinions, nothing more and nothing less. I didn't agree with Lindsay Perigo when he said that you're evil, but you certainly are a prick. Someone who cares about justice, not. And Ben is right. If the ever increasing financial cost to the French taxpayers for security between them and the Islamic immigrant community isn't evidence of a problem with Islamic immigration, then you've crossed the line from the world of principles to the world of dogma.<br />Richard Wiighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18014802233741921087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-57528853825486304362017-03-01T00:26:38.614+13:002017-03-01T00:26:38.614+13:00This is not an attempt to post on your blog, but f...This is not an attempt to post on your blog, but for your eyes only, Peter. You accuse me of giving up on liberty, and of only being animated by Muslims. Your accusation is not objective. The first letter, my letter, was published on Friday in the Nelson Mail, and Mr Glover's response was published yesterday. He mentions the Libertarianz. He may have googled it, or he might a long memory. But anyway, I won't give up on freedom till the day I die. <br />Sir,<br /><br /> Like a character from George Orwell's, 1984, Gary Glover (Mailbox, Feb 22) claims that "it is crucial that everyone responsibly expresses our right to free speech lest hate speech laws which criminalise views and disrespectful behaviour viewed as ugly, immoral or dangerous are introduced." In other words, don't exercise your freedom of speech or it will be taken.<br /><br />Mr Glover pretends to be a free speech supporter, when clearly he is not. The purpose of the freedom of speech is to protect the offensive, the immoral, and the ugly. Or, in other words, to protect the right of people to say things that other people do not want to hear. <br /><br />A society mature enough to handle that, is civilised. Those who can't handle it are like children tossing their toys from their cot, only exceedingly more dangerous. The Nazis, and more recently the Berkeley rioters, are testament to that.<br /><br />Not so free speech<br />Nelson Mail27 Feb 2017<br /><br />Hate speech laws which criminalise free speech deemed harmful, hateful or hurtful would very quickly curb Libertarianz campaigner Richard Wiig’s advocacy of an absolute right of free speech with no limits (February 24). Richard, our right of free speech is already limited. Even unknowingly publicly promoting any falsehood is libel or slander which right now limits our right to free speech. So does assaulting another with abusive or offensive language and speech which lacks insight into another’s race, culture or religion, as the ‘‘Huntly harpy’’ learnt. With his anything is allowed libertarian ideology Mr Wiig upends my approach of responsibly using free speech because his anything goes approach is the very thing that will hasten in hate speech laws that would greatly limit his and everyone else’s right to analyse, criticise or oppose aspects of another’s race, culture or religion. For our democracy’s sake I will implacably oppose hate speech laws, even if this means a slight limit on our right to absolute free speech. But first our free speech must be responsible speech.<br /><br />Gary Glover<br />Richmond, Feb 25<br />Richard Wiighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18014802233741921087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-48880305759193389212017-02-28T21:57:18.893+13:002017-02-28T21:57:18.893+13:00Ben suggests that because the Swedish government h...Ben suggests that because the Swedish government has reduced its refugee intake, it proves that Swedish criminologists deliberately under-report refugee crime. Is this what you call logic??MarkThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06199883270652041621noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-60809223668198581812017-02-28T12:06:30.420+13:002017-02-28T12:06:30.420+13:00Ben, as we say above, the story here is not that S...Ben, as we say above, the story here is not that Sweden is utopia, it's that the story of Swedish crime stats proving your story is just not so.<br />Further, the John Birch Society and their fellow travellers are not providers of evidence. So if you do have any to challenge what's laid out above, and you've argued this issue for so long that you surely must have plenty, then please adduce it.<br />If you can't, and if bluster from John Birchers et al is all you can provide, then please allow the rest of us to draw the obvious conclusion.Peter Cresswellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-17394851017237261082017-02-28T08:15:57.773+13:002017-02-28T08:15:57.773+13:00The testimony of a named Swedish police officer is...The testimony of a named Swedish police officer is lunacy, and government statistics are gospel. Never thought I'd hear that from a libertarian.<br /><br />I'll say it again for the nth time: Why has Sweden drastically reduced its refugee intake in the last couple of years? Take your "immigration is always good" dogma cap off & put your thinking cap on.Bennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-37137671487636150962017-02-28T00:57:39.333+13:002017-02-28T00:57:39.333+13:00"For years now this has been the only issue t..."For years now this has been the only issue that animates you,"<br /><br />The only issue you see that animates me. Plenty of issues animate me, from animal rights to the war on drugs and freedom of speech and much more. It always amazes me when people see a very small slice of time on the net and broaden that into a whole singular life. But anyway, why would any of your other posts animate me in such a way? The majority of what you post I agree with. We are perhaps 98% on the same page, just not when it comes to Islam and immigration. And I am animated because I consider it to be a grave issue.<br /><br />"not about liberty, oh no, that passion is clearly long dead,"<br /><br />If I didn't care about liberty I wouldn't care about the threat that Islam poses to liberty. <br /><br />" And you've commented over and over every time it seems remotely relevant to you, as if you know what you're talking abuot as if you're a kind of authority, yet it turns out that of actual facts about the single issue that inspires you, you've know nothing. "<br /><br />I know quite a bit about Islam. I made a point of reading about it after 9/11. It is because I know a bit about it that it concerns me so greatly.<br /><br />"Not a thing. Facts and you and your issue, it turns out, have always been strangers. It's as if you like it that way. It's as if you don't care."<br /><br /><br />Facts matter to me, and I can be persuaded by facts. I'm not sure what you want the above facts (if they are indeed facts) to move me to though. To support for open-immigration? Sorry, but in the current context I cannot support it no matter what the stats on crime say.<br /><br /><br />"You've claimed that immigration is *the* issue with jihad, even though it's not even immigrants themslves who are the terrorists."<br /><br />It isn't true that no immigrants have turned out to be jihadists. There's plenty of instances of this. A quick google is all it takes to find instances of immigrants having gone jihad. But it is really irrelevant. Islam is the motivator for these attacks, not the place of ones birth. The place of ones birth is a straw man.<br /><br />"And you've banged on with your stories and videos about refugees"<br /><br />I've hardly posted any stories and videos about refugees. The last link I posted was to a very long but excellent essay on immigration by Ed Powell, which you didn't allow through for some reason.<br /><br />And one more thing before I go. You said that it's egregious of opponents to say that advocates of open-immigration stand for open-borders. If it truly doesn't mean open-borders then, unless it is an honest error, it is egregious to say that. It's also equally egregious of you to keep claiming that those who have a concern about Islam's jihad are anti-immigration.<br /><br /><br /><br />Richard Wiighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18014802233741921087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-55671728428087420642017-02-27T22:15:24.051+13:002017-02-27T22:15:24.051+13:00You know, Richard, that's just several levels ...You know, Richard, that's just several levels deep of horseshit.<br /><br />For years now this has been the only issue that animates you, that excites you -- not about liberty, oh no, that passion is clearly long dead, but about the single issue of *keeping out Muslims.* That's it. And you've commented over and over every time it seems remotely relevant to you, as if you know what you're talking abuot, as if you're a kind of authority, yet it turns out that of actual facts about the single issue that inspires you, you've know nothing. Not a thing. Facts and you and your issue, it turns out, have always been strangers. It's as if you like it that way. It's as if you don't care.<br /><br />You've claimed that immigration is *the* issue with jihad, even though it's not even immigrants themslves who are the terrorists. (And we've talked about this, so don't pretend it's news.) And you've banged on with your stories and videos about refugees and crime and your stories and bullshit about Swedish crime rates as if it all proves your point just by claiming crime rates going throgh the roof ... and then when it's shown that none of the above is true and you now say that "ordinary crime isn't the issue" (and this here is not even a hard-hitting piece, simply pointing out something anyne would know for the downloading of some actual crime stats), you just move on like it's not important and you say you'll just believe whatever you want to believe, thank you very much.<br /><br />AS if evidence is just something you download in bite-size stories from the 'Daily Mail,' and bugger everything else. As if you're happy that you know nothing, and you want to know less.<br /><br />You know what, Richard, you are a complete fucking fraud, and I'm done with you. I'm sick of you clogging up these threads with your fantasies; with what's worse even than just spam; with what amounts to complete garbage. <br /><br />You may never post here again on my watch.<br /><br />Go back to your cesspit and soak in it.<br /><br />PS: I will give you one right of reply, no longer than this, and with no links. And then do us all a favour and fuck off.Peter Cresswellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-81753265994269778292017-02-27T21:35:54.827+13:002017-02-27T21:35:54.827+13:00That isn't what I've said. I realise the d...That isn't what I've said. I realise the difference and I didn't equate them. I said that I'm faced with a contradiction. In the face of that contradiction I trust stories from the ground ahead of the government collated statistics. My mistrust is entirely rational. As for my standard, it is human life. My position on restricting immigration doesn't stand on the crime stats, and I alluded to that in my response to Mark. Crime stats are not a reason to limit immigration at all, even if immigrants did bring more crime. The answer to that would be to be tough on crime. Revoke the visitor visa of any immigrant criminal and send them back to where they came from. That's the proper answer to ordinary crime.<br /><br />Ordinary crime isn't the issue. Islam's war against the non-Islamic world is. Importation of Jihad into the West is the issue. In the face of that threat I will never support a loose open-door policy on immigration. The lives of Westerners are too important to sacrifice to blind ideology.Richard Wiighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18014802233741921087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-23591453551545033542017-02-27T18:04:26.388+13:002017-02-27T18:04:26.388+13:00No, Ben, we are not posting your links to your fav...No, Ben, we are not posting your links to your favourite conspiracy sites. Raving lunacy from the John Birch Society is not evidence of anything, except of what you think constitutes evidence.<br />Good to know..Peter Cresswellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-83155479206704623282017-02-27T17:24:09.096+13:002017-02-27T17:24:09.096+13:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Bennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-11863844157279351032017-02-27T16:14:28.129+13:002017-02-27T16:14:28.129+13:00Richard, that you think what political pollsters a...Richard, that you think what political pollsters and the compilers of crime statistics do are in any way similar speaks volumes. <br />That you do so without citing any evidence beyond your feelings about it tells us, I'd suggest, all we really need to know about your standards.<br />So unless you have actual evidence to cite about the gathering of these statistics, on opposition to which your whole case hinges (such as it is), I'm going to suggest you keep your mouth shut.<br />Better just to be thought a fool than to come here and keep proving it.Peter Cresswellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-80510030994062883882017-02-27T15:54:03.587+13:002017-02-27T15:54:03.587+13:00"Glossed over"? No, I'm not aware of..."Glossed over"? No, I'm not aware of that. I seem to recall that we see the statistics thoroughly collected, and the argument is generally about on whom to pin the blame for those bad statistics.<br />You're suggesting something totally different, that the Swedish statistics themselves are wrong, for which you have adduced precisely zero evidence apart from your wishes that it be the way you would like it to be.<br />Amongst real men, that is called bullshit.<br />So please either cite evidence, or piss off.Peter Cresswellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-9857070933616661492017-02-27T13:21:49.931+13:002017-02-27T13:21:49.931+13:00As you're aware PC, in NZ negative Maori stati...As you're aware PC, in NZ negative Maori statistics are glossed over as "society's fault" rather than blaming the individuals, parents or the culture within Maori communities.<br /><br />In Sweden they take the political correctness a step further - to media reports and statistics featuring Muslims.<br /><br />It's interesting how you forget your contempt for academia every time a university publishes something that seems to support your worldview. Bennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-21159961261047335532017-02-27T11:12:50.324+13:002017-02-27T11:12:50.324+13:00My apologies, Ben, if the actual crime statistics ...My apologies, Ben, if the actual crime statistics don't match your talking points.<br />May I recommend better talking points?Peter Cresswellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10699845031503699181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-9046091644859692422017-02-27T10:01:08.775+13:002017-02-27T10:01:08.775+13:00If you have an "immigrants can never be a pro...If you have an "immigrants can never be a problem" mindset like Peter then of course you'll find arbitrary excuses to dismiss each & every incident. But why do you think Sweden has drastically reduced its refugee intake if there's no problem?<br /><br />It's not my job to educate you, but you can't say I haven't tried.Bennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-82036912487493056822017-02-26T15:38:19.887+13:002017-02-26T15:38:19.887+13:00Mark: "If you're talking Islam in general...Mark: "If you're talking Islam in general, of course there's that link, that's bleedingly obvious. Just as there was (and to some degree still is) a link between Christianity and hostility to science. But that's not what this post is about, "<br /><br />Don't trivialise it. The massacres at Orlando, Paris, Nice, and all the rest are not a trivial matter. The link between Islam and liberty is exactly what this post is about. It's exactly what the problem is. If there was no rise of Islamic militancy, we would not be having this discussion. There would be no issue.<br /><br />Mark: "it's whether Islamic immigrants contribute disproportionately to crime rates in Sweden"<br /><br />Contribute disproportionately is nothing but weasel words. Islamic immigrants bring jihad with them, regardless of what the crime stats are. <br /><br />Mark:"The evidence is clearly that they don't, to any significant degree."<br /><br />As I said, Government statistics that I do not trust. I have every reason not to trust them, given the all the stories on the ground that paint a very different picture.<br /><br />Mark: " As such it supports my contention (discussed in the past) that exposing someone from an inferior cultural background to a Western one weakens the inferior culture, and that over time they generally adopt superior values."<br /><br />This will be the case under certain conditions. The superior culture, for starters, must assert itself as superior rather than apologise for itself, and the person from the inferior culture must be overwhelmed by and integrated with the superior culture. This is not what is happening in Europe. Whole areas are becoming Islamic where Western culture is next to non-existent. You can also not over-look the power of faith. The most faithful to Islam will not give up Islam. They won't see Western culture as superior but rather, as inferior. Sayyid Qutb, for instance, a figurehead of the modern Jihad movement, lived and studied in America for two years and came away more disgusted with the West than when he went there. He went on to dedicated the rest of his life to destroying the West in order to replace it with Islam.<br /><br />Mark: "As the legitimate issue that's up for debate is at what stage, and in what circumstances does the positive effect I've described get outweighed by the threat that may come from those who still cling to their illiberalism."<br /> <br /> Fuck! Probably half of all Westerners are hostile to Liberalism. It's going down the plughole without even importing mindsets that are even more hostile to it.<br /><br />Mark: "Back to the specifics, you've still provided no reason why we shouldn't trust the figures,"<br /><br />I have given you a very good reason. All the stories from the ground that contradict the figures.<br /><br />Mark" " or even a motive for why the sources would want to distort them. "<br /><br />That I haven't done. I would put it down to just wanting to look good, to the politically correct not wanting the Multiculturalist dream to unravel on them after having invested so much time and energy into creating it. But A is A. You can avoid reality, but not its consquences. It is unravelling on them.<br /><br />Mark: " The analogy you draw between predicting in advance what is going to happen in an election, from those who probably want to see one side win; versus reporting on what *has* already happened is completely invalid."<br /><br />It isn't irrelevant at all. It's the same thing. The ground floor spoke more truth to me than all the talking heads, "experts" and polls combined. Richard Wiighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18014802233741921087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-58466083226917634572017-02-26T08:39:04.713+13:002017-02-26T08:39:04.713+13:00"I'm claiming a link between Islam and ho..."I'm claiming a link between Islam and hostility to liberalism."<br /><br />If you're talking Islam in general, of course there's that link, that's bleedingly obvious. Just as there was (and to some degree still is) a link between Christianity and hostility to science. But that's not what this post is about, it's whether Islamic immigrants contribute disproportionately to crime rates in Sweden, all other things (such as income) being equal. The evidence is clearly that they don't, not to any significant degree. As such it supports my contention (discussed in the past) that exposing someone from an inferior cultural background to a Western one weakens the inferior culture, and that over time they generally adopt superior values. That this pattern exists to some degree should be bleedingly obvious and beyond debate; the legitimate issue that's up for debate is at what stage, and in what circumstances does the positive effect I've described get outweighed by the threat that may come from those who still cling to their illiberalism.<br /><br />Back to the specifics, you've still provided no reason why we shouldn't trust the figures, or even a motive for why the sources would want to distort them. Ben alleged deliberate under-reporting of immigrant crime, but when I asked fir examples came up with nothing of relevance. The analogy you draw between predicting in advance what is going to happen in an election, from those who probably want to see one side win; versus reporting on what *has* already happened is completely invalid. MarkThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06199883270652041621noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-3965775430850014092017-02-25T20:52:18.198+13:002017-02-25T20:52:18.198+13:00I'm not claiming any link between immigrants a...I'm not claiming any link between immigrants and crime rates. I'm claiming a link between Islam and hostility to liberalism. And there is plenty of reason not to trust those stats. It's the same reason I didn't trust that Hillary would win hands down. The stories from the ground didn't match what was served up by the media, the "experts" and the polls. I don't place any trust in those stats for the same reasons. Peter has posted a link to a Johan Norberg who he says, has owned the Trumper's because he lives in Malmo. All he's said is that the lives there and he's happy to live there. I'd like more than that. If he goes downtown with a Bosch Fawstin Muhammad t-shirt on and makes a reasonable criticism of Islam and comes back with his face still intact, then I'll agree. There is no problem in Malmo.Richard Wiighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18014802233741921087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-1735289006033428932017-02-25T15:19:26.607+13:002017-02-25T15:19:26.607+13:00Well Ben, if there are countless examples as you&#...Well Ben, if there are countless examples as you're claiming, it should be possible to give me one at least? Your first two attempts certainly don't qualify.MarkThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06199883270652041621noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-13689047584671523762017-02-25T15:14:11.646+13:002017-02-25T15:14:11.646+13:00"I don't trust the "raw statistical ... "I don't trust the "raw statistical data". I care about facts on the ground"<br /><br />The "facts on the ground" are that crime exists in every culture and nation that has ever existed. So focusing on isolated events tells us nothing. Statistical data attempts to sum those individual events and tell us if there's any pattern. You've dismissed that data on the basis you don't trust it, but given no reason why we shouldn't - nor can I think of any reason why the professionals you dismiss would want to distort the figures. The only correlation I'm aware of is between low income and higher crime rates, not between immigrants and higher crime rates as you're claiming.MarkThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06199883270652041621noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-36033397128784720712017-02-24T09:11:01.928+13:002017-02-24T09:11:01.928+13:00Like I said Mark - those are just a couple of inst...Like I said Mark - those are just a couple of instances. You could spend all day on Google reading about other ones. There's an awful lot of smoke despite the official figures denying any Islamic fire.<br /><br />And here's some food for thought: Sweden has gone from being the most generous refugee nation per capita, to accepting the bare minimum mandated by the EU. Join the dots.Bennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11906042.post-28325755692168046042017-02-24T07:39:29.678+13:002017-02-24T07:39:29.678+13:00The riots in Rinkeby on Monday night apparently we...The riots in Rinkeby on Monday night apparently were in response to a man being arrested on drug charges. In response masked men attacked police and rampaged. Just the normal kind of stuff you get in any city, typically in places like Otara, according to Anonymous below. Anyway, I wonder how many crimes from Monday nights riots will enter the crime stats.Richard Wiighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18014802233741921087noreply@blogger.com